Para smock help

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    trstevens

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    Para smock help

    Post by trstevens on Wed May 27, 2009 6:22 pm

    Hey everyone I was sent here from the U.S. Militaria fourm. I need some help with this uniform that I have had hanging around for the past couple years. What I have is the para smock, trousers, helmet and cap. It all came as one group from a guy I know and I would like to research it. I believe it to be from the Falklands war era, I am not sure though and I have a last name and number which is Knowles and 6243. Any help would be great Thanks

    -Travis


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    Re: Para smock help

    Post by Guest on Wed May 27, 2009 7:06 pm

    Hi Travis,

    Yes, what you have there is an early British Army DPM Camouflage Pattern Parachutist Smock, from the Falklands War period (no way to date the smock specifically, but probably mid-1970s to mid-1980s). The top patch on the right sleeve is the British Army parachutist wing. The patch below this wing is normally a DZ flash (for "Drop Zone"), but the one on your smock is completely unfamiliar to me. It does not appear to date to the early 1980s like the rest of this gear, nor do I believe it is a proper British Army DZ flash at all. Is it possible somebody removed the original flash and replaced it with this patch for some reason? If it is a British DZ flash, it is of a design I have never seen before.

    The field cap was a standard issue item from this period. It was so beloved by soldiers that it earned the nickname "craphat." Interestingly enough, your cap has the British Army Parachute Regiment cap badge affixed to the front, which is what the cap was designed for - although in practice I have rarely if ever seen it done.

    Lastly, you have an early MK 6 British Army helmet with DPM cover, dating to 1984. So the helmet, at least, post-dates the Falklands War by a couple of years, but the entire grouping does appear to be from this period.

    Very nice grouping.

    If you have any more questions, feel free to drop me a line.

    Cheers,

    Eric

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    Re: Para smock help

    Post by bravo_2_zero on Wed May 27, 2009 7:12 pm

    British clothing is unlike any other in the world. In the late 90's it was very common to see soldiers in original 1st issue 1968 DPM. The DPM like shown would be a prized item and could be worn today to give a soldier the 'ALLY' look of been there done that.

    The helmet is dated 1984 but could be reissued etc... and reused right up to the present day.
    The crap hat looks 1980's DPM
    The Smock is late 60's gold DPM , which again don't mean it was used in the Falklands.

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    Re: Para smock help

    Post by bravo_2_zero on Wed May 27, 2009 7:18 pm

    oda196 wrote:
    Is it possible somebody removed the original flash and replaced it with this patch for some reason? If it is a British DZ flash, it is of a design I have never seen before.

    Other units of the British army can apply for the parachute regiment to be attached and trained. When you pass your parachute course you are given the maroon beret and a jump smock. the soldier then applies his own unit's badge and insignia to smock and beret. The smock is then worn as a status jacket rather than a practical jacket back in the unit.

    trstevens

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    Re: Para smock help

    Post by trstevens on Wed May 27, 2009 7:26 pm

    Thanks for the help guys! one other question does the british military have a research tool like NARA so I can find some info about the guy who used the stuff.

    bravo_2_zero
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    Re: Para smock help

    Post by bravo_2_zero on Wed May 27, 2009 7:30 pm

    trstevens wrote:Thanks for the help guys! one other question does the British military have a research tool like NARA so I can find some info about the guy who used the stuff.
    As far as i know, I don't think they do. The guys Sn# is 8 figures long like mine is, mine ends in 8754. This may not help in the search with only the few numbers you have.

    kiwipom
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    Re: Para smock help

    Post by kiwipom on Fri May 29, 2009 5:08 am

    The "unknown" patch isnt a DZ patch but does look like a brigade formation badge, I suggest you try www.britishbadgeforum.com one of the regular posters their will definetly know it.

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    Re: Para smock help

    Post by 1stDivVet on Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:35 pm

    Patch is HQ, British Army of the Rhine (HQ BAOR)


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    Re: Para smock help

    Post by Tommo on Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:23 pm

    One of these Para Smocks went on ebay for £122 the other week! I have one aswell.

    Its faded, because the colour and pattern was similar or the same as the P85 Arktis RM Smock. Where it is P84/85 I dont know although it does a have OD Zip which is common for P60/P68 and Newey poppers. I am also guessing its made by HE Textiles who made my Smock and the one on ebay. I think its a BAOR flash so any date from 68-90's is possible.

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    Re: Para smock help

    Post by Gulf91 on Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:00 am

    bravo_2_zero wrote:British clothing is unlike any other in the world. In the late 90's it was very common to see soldiers in original 1st issue 1968 DPM. The DPM like shown would be a prized item and could be worn today to give a soldier the 'ALLY' look of been there done that.

    The helmet is dated 1984 but could be reissued etc... and reused right up to the present day.
    The crap hat looks 1980's DPM
    The Smock is late 60's gold DPM , which again don't mean it was used in the Falklands.

    These smocks werent introduced until around 1977 so definitely not late 60s or are you referring to the cammo type,colour,design which means nothing on these.Its the label thats the most important thing and this is a very very nice early Smock,Parachutists-VERY VERY NICE Very Happy Very Happy

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    Re: Para smock help

    Post by Gulf91 on Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:02 am

    Tommo wrote:One of these Para Smocks went on ebay for £122 the other week! I have one aswell.

    Its faded, because the colour and pattern was similar or the same as the P85 Arktis RM Smock. Where it is P84/85 I dont know although it does a have OD Zip which is common for P60/P68 and Newey poppers. I am also guessing its made by HE Textiles who made my Smock and the one on ebay. I think its a BAOR flash so any date from 68-90's is possible.

    Tommo,can you please not start confusing the issue with P this that and the other-NO SUCH THING regarding Smocks,PArachutists and just muddles the issue.

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    Re: Para smock help

    Post by Tommo on Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:10 pm

    What do you mean? Eg: 68 Pattern or Pattern 68, so P68, either way thats the name of the camo and sometimes cut.

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    Re: Para smock help

    Post by Gulf91 on Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:50 am

    Tommo wrote:What do you mean? Eg: 68 Pattern or Pattern 68, so P68, either way thats the name of the camo and sometimes cut.

    Its NOT the name of the cammo im afraid-the cammo is plain and simple DPM.

    The only items that are 68 pattern or 60 pattern for that matter are the combat smocks and trs.

    Windproofs,Smocks Parachutists or Tropicals for that matter do not have any pattern designation so not sure why people feel the need to describe them by the colours of the DPM Sad

    The designation of 66 or 68 Pattern has nothing WHATSOEVER to do with the type or colour of the DPM material itself it is used to designate the type of clothing.

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    Re: Para smock help

    Post by Tommo on Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:46 am

    Well were not talking about Trops mate, were talking about a Para Smock? and If you'll look at the Camo Patterns of the shade and shape is very distinctable, so you'll actually find that most people can tell what era and pattern of kit it is by the that.

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    Re: Para smock help

    Post by Gulf91 on Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:52 am

    Tommo wrote:Well were not talking about Trops mate, were talking about a Para Smock? and If you'll look at the Camo Patterns of the shade and shape is very distinctable, so you'll actually find that most people can tell what era and pattern of kit it is by the that.

    Camo Patterns of the shade and shape is very distinctable

    Wouldnt matter if it was pink with blue spots,the cammo pattern and colour has nothing at all to do with the identification of a Para Smock at all im afraid.

    The things you need to be looking for to determine the era are the label and if it has an FFD pocket on the right sleeve.

    CollectinSteve
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    Re: Para smock help

    Post by CollectinSteve on Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:57 pm

    Correct. The "Pattern" numbers are about the basic cut of the uniform, not the camouflage itself. It's all DPM. And not even consistently colored from model of uniform to model of uniform. And since Arktis is a commercial company, there is no such thing as "P85" as it relates to genuine MoD issued kit. Arktis can, of course, call it anything it wants to. Though I take it Arktis doesn't call it a "P85" smock?

    As far as I know, these are the only official designations:

    P60
    P68
    P84
    P94
    S95
    S2000

    There are various types of uniforms other than standard temperate kit. As far as I know they do not have their own special designations.

    Steve

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    Re: Para smock help

    Post by Gulf91 on Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:04 pm

    CollectinSteve wrote:Correct. The "Pattern" numbers are about the basic cut of the uniform, not the camouflage itself. It's all DPM. And not even consistently colored from model of uniform to model of uniform. And since Arktis is a commercial company, there is no such thing as "P85" as it relates to genuine MoD issued kit. Arktis can, of course, call it anything it wants to. Though I take it Arktis doesn't call it a "P85" smock?

    As far as I know, these are the only official designations:

    P60
    P68
    P84
    P94
    S95
    S2000

    There are various types of uniforms other than standard temperate kit. As far as I know they do not have their own special designations.

    Steve

    Hello Steve,were P84 and P94 official patterns?

    Not disputing you at all just curious as to if they appear on any issue labels as do P60,68 and CS95.

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    Re: Para smock help

    Post by Easy Gee on Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:01 pm

    Hi Travis.

    Very cool Brit kit mate, thanks for showing it here. Cool

    And what's even cooler ,is the debate around the weird and wonderful world of DPM patterns and the speculations around it all...love it Laughing


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    Re: Para smock help

    Post by filupe on Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:55 pm

    Pattern 84 would have to have been an official pattern - the cut was significantly different from Pattern 68 for it not to be so. The main difference I noticed was the use of bellowed pockets for the later pattern.

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    Re: Para smock help

    Post by Tommo on Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:39 am

    CollectinSteve wrote:Though I take it Arktis doesn't call it a "P85" smock?

    AFAIK, its quoted as 'Smock Windproof' but they are very scarce and mine has no label, but it is identical to the RM Windproof. I presume because its 84/85 Pattern whatever you want to call it, it would be the MK2 Windproof.

    Check out the forces 80 page, uniformv2p2.html

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    Re: Para smock help

    Post by Gulf91 on Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:26 pm

    Tommo wrote:
    CollectinSteve wrote:Though I take it Arktis doesn't call it a "P85" smock?

    AFAIK, its quoted as 'Smock Windproof' but they are very scarce and mine has no label, but it is identical to the RM Windproof. I presume because its 84/85 Pattern whatever you want to call it, it would be the MK2 Windproof.

    Check out the forces 80 page, uniformv2p2.html

    Just had a quick scan of the Forces 80 website and while it seems as a group they are to be commended as for their DPM guide i had to give up halfway due to the utter crap printed about various "Patterns" that have never existed so no wonder so many people are referring to X,Y,Z Patterns if they read stuff like that.

    1968+1984 Pattern Windproofs.

    1968 and 1986 Pattern Para Smock.

    1968+1984 Pattern Waterproofs.

    Not sure if i should be laughing or crying after reading that Laughing Laughing Laughing

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    Re: Para smock help

    Post by filupe on Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:52 pm

    Gulf 91 is right ...

    Truth be told I could never de-cipher Brit tags for dates, certainly not as easy as the US system ...

    I do know that the sleeve FFD pockets started appearing in the mid-80's, as I obtained a issue para smock of a rather dark DPM colouration with said pocket around '86/87, and new issue trops also had same pocket.

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