PECOC Review - Please add your Patterns etc

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    sobota
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    Re: PECOC Review - Please add your Patterns etc

    Post by sobota on Sat Apr 18, 2015 12:01 pm

    Away from home at the moment troops but i'll add more of my share when i can!

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    Re: PECOC Review - Please add your Patterns etc

    Post by CollectinSteve on Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:02 pm

    Excellent! I've updated my list to include new variations and also experimental MTP items. These are listed in probable order of introduction:


    2 Color Desert
    CD2
    CS06
    PECOC
    Desert DP (Stage 4)

    3 Color Desert (Brown)
    Track 2146 (2)
    DES2
    CD1
    CD2
    CD3
    Desert DP (Stage 4)

    Woodland
    CD1
    CD2
    CD3
    CD06
    Woodland DP (Stage 4)

    MTP
    CD2
    Stage 5

    There are also a couple of oddball items such as the UBACS Type B shirt.

    Some things I think I've made sense of based on the labels and context.

    There are a number of items that are listed as "Desert DP" and "Woodland DP", but one of them has a secondary designation of "Stage 4". I am going to make a logical leap to suggest that the "DP" type is "Stage 4". I am also making the leap that "Stage 5" was the final phase of testing.

    While I'm at it, I'll make another couple of leaps Very Happy

    I think all the CD items were "Stage 3", all the "Track 2146 (2)" are "Stage 2", and "Stage 1" was the design phase where, perhaps, some of the on demand printed items came from. If I'm correct, the Stages look like this:

    Stage 1 -> design and perhaps crude prototypes
    Stage 2 -> wearable items, but not production quality, in about 10 different patterns
    Stage 3 -> wearable, production quality items in three patterns (2 Color Desert, 3 Color Desert, Standard Woodland) to test various feature designs.
    Stage 4 -> wearable, production quality items in three patterns (same as Stage 3) to further test features.
    Stage 5 -> MTP only wearable, production quality items to further test features.

    Steve



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    Re: PECOC Review - Please add your Patterns etc

    Post by CollectinSteve on Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:05 pm

    mylle wrote:Now I totally lost the overview.So much different stuff.
    What a Face

    Indeed! I have to say this is the most extensive/expansive trials I have ever seen. The US Army trials of the early 2000s evaluated more camouflage patterns, however the progression to wearable items, not to mention production quality ones, was far more limited. They appear to have ruled out a number of patterns before they got to that stage.

    Steve

    LeeKitchen1975
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    Re: PECOC Review - Please add your Patterns etc

    Post by LeeKitchen1975 on Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:11 pm

    Brilliant review Steve, agree on your comments...makes total sense! Interesting to see it all collated!!!

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    Re: PECOC Review - Please add your Patterns etc

    Post by CollectinSteve on Sat Apr 18, 2015 7:23 pm

    LeeKitchen1975 wrote:Brilliant review Steve, agree on your comments...makes total sense! Interesting to see it all collated!!!

    Thanks! It's a work in progress Very Happy

    One big question is when did MTP creep into the trials? There is a CD2 item so perhaps that means it came in at Stage 3 with the other CD items. But maybe not because I'm only guessing at the association with the Stages!

    What is interesting to me is that it's apparently easier to find examples of rejected patterns than it is MTP. This implies that MTP came in late in the program and they moved quickly from experimental uniform designs to full scale production.

    Steve

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    Re: PECOC Review - Please add your Patterns etc

    Post by LeeKitchen1975 on Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:37 pm

    I know MTP was born from a UOR (Urgent Operational Requirement) budget. UOR's were used by UK forces to bypass the main supply chain and bypass long time frames for introduction of kit. A number of items were delivered by this means e.g Solo body armour, certain upgrades to weapon systems but also MTP, a hybrid of Crye precision with a UK twist.

    I am guessing here but it is looking like the UK were progressing with PECOC and trialling items via the traditional sourcing and testing route which may have been taking time 2008/2009 onwards. UK SF were using Crye and as it was deemed fit for them and they trialled it for hall UK forces (There was a garment of a S95 shirt and trousers on eBay from s chap in the states which was made out of Crye)...therefore could it be that somebody at a higher level sort of canned PECOC and rolled out Crye/MTP due to Urgent operational requirement as lads were dyeing their own kit? This is a assumption but looks quite logical?

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    Re: PECOC Review - Please add your Patterns etc

    Post by Duncan McLain on Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:05 am

    FR UBACS





    Half zip/half buttons DDPM Shirt



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    Re: PECOC Review - Please add your Patterns etc

    Post by CollectinSteve on Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:53 pm

    Hmmm... it looks like "Desert DP" is not associated with a specific part of the trial. Because now we have "Stage 4" as well as "CS06", which I do not believe are the same thing. Therefore, I am revising my list:


    2 Color Desert
    CD2
    CS06
    PECOC

    3 Color Desert (Brown)
    Track 2146 (2)
    DES2
    CD1
    CD2
    CD3

    Woodland
    CD1
    CD2
    CD3
    CD06

    MTP
    CD2
    Stage 5

    Some items are designated "Desert DP" (both 2 and 3 color) and "Woodland DP", either without secondary designation or with ("CS06" and "Stage 4" noted).

    There are also a couple of oddball items such as the UBACS Type B shirt.

    I think all the CD items were "Stage 3", all the "Track 2146 (2)" are "Stage 2", and "Stage 1" was the design phase where, perhaps, some of the on demand printed items came from. That might include the digitized patterns.

    If I'm correct, the Stages look like this:

    Stage 1 -> design and perhaps crude prototypes
    Stage 2 -> wearable items, but not production quality, in about 10 different patterns
    Stage 3 -> wearable, production quality items in three patterns (2 Color Desert, 3 Color Desert, Standard Woodland) to test various feature designs.
    Stage 4 -> wearable, production quality items in three patterns (same as Stage 3) to further test features.
    Stage 5 -> MTP only wearable, production quality items to further test features.

    Steve

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    Re: PECOC Review - Please add your Patterns etc

    Post by CollectinSteve on Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:38 pm

    I just got my 3 Color Brown stuff. It is marked "PECOC PR" and dated 2009. The cloth is the same thin non-ripstop poly cotton cloth as my CD1 trousers. My CD3 trousers (on the way to me) is made from ripstop cloth.

    The feature differences between CD1 and PECOC PR are fairly similar. The big difference is PECOC PR has inner hand pockets closed with zippers and extended tabs (tapes) to open the pockets. The CD3 trousers has a bunch of differences, including an elastic waistband, zipper/velcro ankle cuffs, openable knee pockets, and probably some other stuff I can't see form the pictures I have.

    Steve

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    Re: PECOC Review - Please add your Patterns etc

    Post by Camo_fiend on Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:45 pm

    Just received my PECOC 3-colour trousers. Fabric is very similar to the windproof smock material.

    Is it possible the Brits were experimenting with a concept similar to the Australians -- lightweight shirts and heavier-weight trousers, or were these prototype windproofs?


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    Re: PECOC Review - Please add your Patterns etc

    Post by CollectinSteve on Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:34 am

    Woodland and 2 color desert items were made in their standard cloth so I don't think they were experimenting with a new (crappy!) cloth. Remember that once the pattern has been nailed down the only variable expense is the cloth as labor is identical no matter what. Running cheap cloth to test the cut and/or colors makes sense from a cost savings standpoint. As does substituting velcro for buttons, as is the case on my 3 Color CD1 trousers. The Brits might have been thinking about using velcro instead of buttons, but I tend to think it was simply a cost savings move.

    From what I can tell the wide variety of camo patterns was produced in 2007. It seems that most were dropped right away and 2 Color Desert, 3 Color Desert (Brown), and standard Woodland were retained for further experimentation through at least 2009. Then they quickly switched to MTP, which apparently was first issued (in small numbers) in March 2010.

    Steve

    sobota
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    Re: PECOC Review - Please add your Patterns etc

    Post by sobota on Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:36 pm

    I know im late to the party but heres my labels!

    First off the clothing:
















    I also have a large collection of DPM body armour bits, I've listed below the variations of labels:


    CD 1 2007 ‘P2T0002’







    ‘P3T0001’





    ‘P3T0004’





    CD1 2008 Osprey Mk 2 / 3





    CD 1 & 2 PECOC PLCE 2008






    CD2 2008 Osprey Mk4







    I only got the ammunition pouch today so here it is in full:






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    Re: PECOC Review - Please add your Patterns etc

    Post by Camo_fiend on Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:07 pm

    Is it odd that I get inexplicably grumpy when George posts all his PECOC bits? Razz Wink


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    Re: PECOC Review - Please add your Patterns etc

    Post by sobota on Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:10 pm

    Ha ha sorry Ben! If I'm honest I forget what I have until I dig it all out! Very Happy

    M198
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    Re: PECOC Review - Please add your Patterns etc

    Post by M198 on Sun May 03, 2015 11:14 am

    This may or may not be related to PECOC, but i've got a pair of CS95 pants that seems slightly darker than usual, and have a "FOR TRAINING PURPOSES ONLY" tag on the inside of the waist.

    They were bought new so i doubt they were tampered with, anyone know what gives?

    sobota
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    Re: PECOC Review - Please add your Patterns etc

    Post by sobota on Sun May 03, 2015 11:29 am

    The only time ive ever seen that is in Armoured Fighting Vehicle Coveralls, i think due to fire retardant properties, but i may be wrong...


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    Re: PECOC Review - Please add your Patterns etc

    Post by M198 on Sun May 03, 2015 12:03 pm

    It's just a normal white tag that says "FOR TRAINING PURPOSES ONLY", i guess it could be some sort of unicorn fire retardant IRR NIJ protection level IV stealth camo DPM, or it may literally be pants intended for training only, it's so vague that it could really be anything, and i haven't really been able to find any information about it.

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    Re: PECOC Review - Please add your Patterns etc

    Post by sobota on Sun May 03, 2015 12:08 pm

    Have you any pictures? Id be interested to see.

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    Re: PECOC Review - Please add your Patterns etc

    Post by M198 on Sun May 03, 2015 2:26 pm

    i had to hold the tag in place because it kept furling up so the picture is not that great, but here you go :

    LeeKitchen1975
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    Re: PECOC Review - Please add your Patterns etc

    Post by LeeKitchen1975 on Sun May 03, 2015 4:11 pm

    I have a DPM set and they are marked the same. All of the ones I have seen on eBay have'Training' labelled on it...

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    Re: PECOC Review - Please add your Patterns etc

    Post by CollectinSteve on Sun May 03, 2015 11:08 pm

    Excellent additions. I just received a set of the 3 Color Desert CD03 trousers, but haven't had a chance to take pictures of it yet.

    Based on Sobota's recent body armor shot, it seems that the alternative Hybrid coloration was called "Hybrid 2". In that case, the list of items seems to be:

    Desert
    Standard 2 color in different hues (similar to production variations)
    3 color Brown (the more prevalent alternative to 2 color)
    3 color DES 5 (variation of "chocolate")
    3 color Gray
    3 color Orange
    3 color Brown Digital

    Woodland
    Standard 4 color (traditional colors)
    4 color Gray
    4 color Green
    4 color digital

    Hybrid
    Standard 4 color (as seen on kit)
    "Hybrid 2" - 4 color Light (one background shape is light gray instead of rust brown)
    4 color Digital

    Steve

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    Re: PECOC Review - Please add your Patterns etc

    Post by LeeKitchen1975 on Fri May 15, 2015 6:54 pm

    I have managed to get another strain of PECOC, unfortunately my phone doesn't seem to uploading the pics and the laptop is dead so...I will put the link on as I have with the other thread and when my laptop is working, I will get put on...

    Interesting though, the shirt has written 'AIIT4' where in other Garments there is 'Des'?! The trousers I had obtained in Grey/Olive, I managed to get the shirt and this also has 'AIIT3' does anybody have a clue on what this pattern is?


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    Re: PECOC Review - Please add your Patterns etc

    Post by CollectinSteve on Sun May 17, 2015 2:07 pm

    Hi Lee,

    I managed to fix one of the two picture links. You had two of the same so I don't know if there is a second one or not.

    I'm going to go out on a limb and say the gray type are "Urban". As with the other patterns they've reversed some of the colors to make more and less contrasting variants.

    AIIT4 might possibly mean "Article 2, Trial 4"???

    Steve

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    Re: PECOC Review - Please add your Patterns etc

    Post by LeeKitchen1975 on Sun May 17, 2015 2:14 pm

    Thank you Steve (would it be possible for you to fix the pics on the other link? Pretty please Wink )

    Agree on the urban theme... just puzzled as on the Desert shirts they have 'Des' so it looks like the AII could be a abreviation for something? Could be wrong though!

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    Re: PECOC Review - Please add your Patterns etc

    Post by mylle on Sun May 17, 2015 2:24 pm

    How many variants did they test????I'm totally confused and without orientation when it comes to this stuff. What a Face

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