Documenting a Plunjebaal, circa 1970

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    Wolverine
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    Re: Documenting a Plunjebaal, circa 1970

    Post by Wolverine on Wed May 18, 2016 8:55 pm

    Steve,

    The 4-pocket magazine belt is Belgian - it is one of several versions with integral suspenders.

    The gaiters with leather buckles, large pack, 3x pack straps, carbine pouch, Type K respirator, and probably the trousers suspenders are Dutch. The green leggings might also be Dutch.

    I am not sure about the holster - what does the back look like?

    Aren't the OD suspenders early M1956? Or possibly Australian?

    The 10-pocket cartridge belt is interesting. The materials look Dutch, but I have never heard of Dutch cartridge belts. Norwegian is also possible. Are there any markings stamped on the LTD female snaps? If you are interested in selling/trading the belt, let me know.

    A

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    Re: Documenting a Plunjebaal, circa 1970

    Post by CollectinSteve on Thu May 19, 2016 12:10 am

    Wolverine wrote:Steve,

    The 4-pocket magazine belt is Belgian - it is one of several versions with integral suspenders.

    Cool, I thought they were Belgian. It's a WW2 pattern BAR gunner's belt.


    The gaiters with leather buckles, large pack, 3x pack straps, carbine pouch, Type K respirator, and probably the trousers suspenders are Dutch.

    Thanks for the confirmation!

    The green leggings might also be Dutch.

    The high top ones? Definitely Dutch as they have the soldier's name in them, same as with several other items.

    I am not sure about the holster - what does the back look like?

    Simple belt loop made from same material. I don't know if it is Dutch or not. it definitely doesn't look the same, but it is made out of the high synthetic material some of the other Dutch things are made out of. It isn't something I've seen a lot of so tentatively I think it might be Dutch.

    Aren't the OD suspenders early M1956? Or possibly Australian?

    For sure it is M1956 pattern. There are no markings and they came with the Dutch stuff. If it's not Dutch then perhaps the soldier acquired it from a US soldier? It has no markings on it at all, which it should have if it was American (even if unreadable there should still be signs of it).

    What was the standard equipment suspenders for a 1960s Dutch soldier?


    The 10-pocket cartridge belt is interesting. The materials look Dutch, but I have never heard of Dutch cartridge belts. Norwegian is also possible. Are there any markings stamped on the LTD female snaps? If you are interested in selling/trading the belt, let me know.

    It's the first time I've ever seen anything like this too! It's for M1 Carbine short magazines. No markings, but it has the same soldier's name as the other confirmed Dutch stuff so I'm sure it's Dutch. It looks and feels like the other stuff as well.

    Steve

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    Re: Documenting a Plunjebaal, circa 1970

    Post by Wolverine on Thu May 19, 2016 10:57 am

    The M1956 suspenders would be totally incompatible with Dutch army equipment at any time (although they would work with Korps Mariniers equipment). The army equipment was based on British WE 37, with the exception of the canteen and etool carrier, which hung on the bottom edge of the webbing belt using M1910 hooks. Note, however, that the belt had eyelets only on the lower edge, so it would be impossible to attach the M1956 suspenders (no eyelets on the top edge). One of my other posts shows a complete set up of army equipment (M1952): http://iacmc.forumotion.com/t10459-dutch-web-gear (see post #13-14).

    Korps Mariniers webbing was based more or less on US M1910, so the suspenders would have worked with that stuff. Also, green leggings are typical of Korps Mariniers items. This would also explain the cartridge belt, as it would be compatible with the M1910 and USMC-type gear that the KMarns used in the postwar period. It is not unusual to find US items mixed in with KMarns equipment of Dutch manufacture. Does the ten-pocket belt actually fit carbine magazines? If so, it must be a little bit oversized.

    So as far as your Dutch stuff goes, you might have a mixture of army and KMarns items.

    The Belgian magazine belts come in at least three different types: one is like yours, one has six magazine pockets, and one has a mixture of FAL magazine pockets and one or two smaller pockets. I have all three types, but have no photos to post at the moment. I believe these were intended for soldiers armed with the heavy-barreled FAL.

    Strictly speaking, these belts are not based on the M1937 BAR belt (which used a much narrower buckle), but rather, the M1918 pattern, which had the very wide buckle. You will not likely see M1918 belts still in front-line service by the Second World War, unless they were retrofitted with the narrower buckles, as was often the case. Why the Belgians opted for the old wide buckles, which are very uncomfortable, is a mystery. These belts are sometimes seen with fake markings to give the impression that they are British-made BAR belts.

    The holster remains a mystery - it is nothing like any of the standard Dutch or Belgian holsters that I have seen.

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    Re: Documenting a Plunjebaal, circa 1970

    Post by CollectinSteve on Fri May 20, 2016 12:46 am

    Excellent! Yes, I think it make sense to think this was a Dutch Marine's equipment. Especially because the Carbine ammo belt is unknown to you. It is definitely Dutch and if it was Army you'd probably know of it before now, yes? And as you can see from the picture of my belt it is compatible with the M1956 suspenders.

    My belt is back in storage, but I'm pretty sure the pouches fit a standard 10 round magazine. I have a M1 Carbine so at some point I'll confirm this.

    Thanks for the reminder about the BAR belt. I had to study this topic in detail about 6 years ago and forgot almost everything I learned Wink Very strange that the Belgians copied the older design. Maybe the US sent them surplus brass parts for free Very Happy

    Steve

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    Re: Documenting a Plunjebaal, circa 1970

    Post by Gulf91 on Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:26 pm

    I have just got myself a similar looking Garand belt and not sure what country it is,what makers or stamps are on the LTD studs on your example please?

    Mine are stamped with what looks like an upside down T.

    There are some ink written names and what looks like a maker stamp on mine but all too faded to read but do not think its of US manufacture.

    Thanks.

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    Re: Documenting a Plunjebaal, circa 1970

    Post by CollectinSteve on Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:25 pm

    Gulf91 wrote:I have just got myself a similar looking Garand belt and not sure what country it is,what makers or stamps are on the LTD studs on your example please?

    Mine are stamped with what looks like an upside down T.

    There are some ink written names and what looks like a maker stamp on mine but all too faded to read but do not think its of US manufacture.

    Thanks.

    You've been finding some fun kit lately!

    Mine have something like "FIX" on one side of the hole and some sort of small logo below the post.

    Reminder that my belt is the style of a Garand belt but is for the original 10 round US M1 Carbine mags. I tried to put a 15 round mag in and it fit fine except it was too tall to close the flap. The 2 cell pouch (pictured above) is set up for 15 round mags.

    Steve

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    Re: Documenting a Plunjebaal, circa 1970

    Post by CollectinSteve on Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:26 pm

    Oh, and I'd love to get a 1950s era canteen and cover if anybody knows where to get one.

    Steve

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    Re: Documenting a Plunjebaal, circa 1970

    Post by Wolverine on Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:51 pm

    A Dutch one you mean? PM me, I might have a spare.

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    Re: Documenting a Plunjebaal, circa 1970

    Post by Wolverine on Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:06 pm

    So, getting back to the items from the plunjebaal, here is a pair of M57 boots:



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    Re: Documenting a Plunjebaal, circa 1970

    Post by CollectinSteve on Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:40 pm

    Cool. That's the same set I have. These were standard issue for everybody, I take it? If so then I think I'll keep my set.

    That reminds me I owe you some photos.

    Steve

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    Re: Documenting a Plunjebaal, circa 1970

    Post by Wolverine on Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:22 pm

    As far as I know they were generally issued throughout the army. In the other services, I am not sure. They were superseded by the M66 boots, which are not quite as nice looking in my opinion. Send me those pictures when you can.

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    Re: Documenting a Plunjebaal, circa 1970

    Post by Wolverine on Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:32 pm

    A final, overdue, posting to complete this thread:

    Also included in this group, but not illustrated, was a second pair of M57 boots, some additional undergarments (of the type already shown), and another M58 outer uniform.

    But here finally is the large plunjezak in which the whole lot was packed.


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