68 pattern

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    thunderchild
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    68 pattern

    Post by thunderchild on Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:32 pm

    Just to share what small amount i have of the 68 pattern dpm , both smock and trousers are lined ,the knee section is in need of some tlc ,also i show some headgear ,scrimmed mk5 ,dragoons crewman bonedome ,RAC helmet and RA beret ,i should really subdue the insignia ,the mk6 was a trials piece first used during the falklands ,you will note it only has a two piece chinstrap ,also an early para helmet , my favorite piece of the set is the 68 pat scrimmed bowie knife ,

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    Re: 68 pattern

    Post by CollectinSteve on Fri Apr 29, 2016 6:10 pm

    Ah! The Home Team gets some attention Very Happy

    If you weren't bragging about that knife you should have to give it up! That thing is BEAUTIFUL! Funny, I don't think I've seen camo covered sheaths before, not to mention the handle itself. The soldier who thought to do that should be commended.

    Steve

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    Re: 68 pattern

    Post by thunderchild on Fri Apr 29, 2016 7:29 pm

    Smile  Thanks steve ,yes it had to be done ,aside from the early gulf war ddpm 68 pat is my favorite ,the later patterns don't really interest me so much ,i left the smock tail buttoned up inside ,unfortunately the green drop zone patch is missing albeit for the outline showing a few stitch remnants as for the 58 webbing it was complete as found ,believe it or not dumped as trash on an empty property ,by chance a friend decided to shift the rubbish ,opened a bin liner and found it and sent it my way ,thanks for the compliments on that bowie ,the covering fits like a glove ,bloody sharp too, thank goodness a child didn't find it first

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    Re: 68 pattern

    Post by dee222 on Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:59 am

    I think you will find its the old style nylon rank that's missing could be sgt or staff sgt by the size of the hole .

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    Re: 68 pattern

    Post by James K on Sat Apr 30, 2016 9:09 am

    You do know that the large pack hooks onto the D rings on the front of the yoke and that the rarely used straps on the shoulder were only to keep them from sliding off? The Mk6 didn't come out even as a trials item until much later than 1982. In the Falklands there was some used of the Para Helmet and the Northern Ireland Patrol helmet which it had been derived from (essentially they were the same thing) The boots Combat High which you have here are the correct type for late 1983 early 84. By this stage most units had rebuilt their 58 with the belt upside down so that the loops faced upwards and the poncho roll sat on top of the kidney pouches, which were themselves often (but not always) replaced with a number of waterbottle pouches)

    It's a very nice collection you have. You might want to try and find black leather NI Gloves (the best thing available at the time) or the double green woolen gloves which were awful, but very well made (almost two pairs of woolen gloves with a single cuff for each)

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    Re: 68 pattern

    Post by Gulf91 on Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:38 pm

    e Northern Ireland Patrol helmet which it had been derived from (essentially they were the same thing)

    Would be interested to see pics of the NI helmet used in The Falklands as its a new one on me and they are nothing alike apart from the chin/neck type straps.

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    Re: 68 pattern

    Post by thunderchild on Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:02 pm

    what can i say apart from many thanks for the constructive criticism gents ,i never profess to being an expert by any means so its all still a learning curve ,funny but i was told the error of my ways via pm regarding the placement of 58 pat back pack ,in my defence due to the D rings being taped down tightly i never gave it a second thought ,thanks dee ,i honestly thought it was the drop patch but can confirm now you mention the stitch remnants do seem to be nylon ,james thank you for the info regarding the trials helmet ,i need to discount the floored information ive been drip fed so far and start again Smile but thank you for the kind compliments on what i did get right ,i will keep my eye's open for those gloves
    all the best ,james

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    Re: 68 pattern

    Post by James K on Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:24 pm

    Good luck with the woolen gloves I have not seen them for years but they are pretty distinctive, the colour is the same as the Jersey Wool Heavy and the knit is the same as the 90's pattern smooth Jersey. They were exceptionally well made but completely useless when wet.

    Northern Ireland gloves shouldn't be too difficult to find.

    if you can find DMS Boots (ankle) and putties that would be right for the time period although some people wore NI Patrol Boots if they had them.

    On the 58 Webbing I'd suggest moving all the pouches as close together as they will go towards the rear. That way when soldiers went prone (on their belly) the pouches didn't impale them.

    Also your Norwegian shirt is correct for the period but unless someone had been issued one in Norway they were difficult to find and relatively expensive. The issue shirt was woolen, usually ironed inside and out to make it smooth. The buttons were very small, early ones where khaki and the later ones green. The green cotton Ben Sherman shirt didn't come in until 1989. many men used green cellulose jungle shirts if they had them as they were more comfortable.

    Great collection well done.

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    Re: 68 pattern

    Post by thunderchild on Sun May 01, 2016 4:05 am

    James thanks once again for all your help on the display

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    Re: 68 pattern

    Post by James K on Sun May 01, 2016 6:31 am

    My pleasure.
    Just a few more things you might find useful.

    I mentioned Northern Ireland patrol boots, they had the sole of the DMS ankle boots and a similar leather design as the much later Combat Assault Boots although they didn't have the hooks just eyelets. The tread pattern was the same as the DMS boot and similar to the Combat Assault but much harder wearing than the latter.

    You may wish to remove the union jack patch from the 44 Pattern Helmet (at the time they were only worn by units on Allied Mobile Force duty and never on the helmet) They would generally have more scrim (camouflage) and often worn backwards so that the long brim would shade the eye's (and glasses) from rain and the rear of the helmet wouldn't tip it over your eye's when going prone.

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    Re: 68 pattern

    Post by thunderchild on Sun May 01, 2016 11:36 am

    i should really add a disclaimer to my threads to really point out to the forum members that these displays are not a permanent fixture in my garden but merely a home made display frame ive knocked together out of some old timber to show off the uniform as i state in the thread title (68 pattern)in the light of day ,after that mostly are put into storage due to lack of space ,the kit /head gear etc is just eye candy embelishment's to hopefully enhance the forum member's viewing pleasure i always go above and beyond the minimum thread requirement's perhaps due to being very sad or maybe having an ocd Smile . the union jack patch was again put in the turtle purely for the display ,more than likely it fell out after i broke up the kit , in future i will just stick to showing flat pack uniform's on my kitchen floor to save on all the descrepancies highlighted and even some i have knowingly shown but i have taken on board all the positive comments and learned a lot in the process so some good has come out of the discussion

    cheers james

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    Re: 68 pattern

    Post by thunderchild on Sun May 01, 2016 12:42 pm

    james k just for your interest here is a link showing my floored information regarding the mk6 helmet not trialled during the falklands campaign http://1982militariaforum.forumcommunity.net/?t=55103480

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    Re: 68 pattern

    Post by James K on Sun May 01, 2016 4:45 pm

    Thanks, I know the web page you linked, it was wrong but understandable as from a distance the GRP para helmet looked like the MK6 and it had two alternative straps, the webbing one being fairly similar.

    Honest, there was no criticism implied about your display, you have a great collection and I was just trying to help with the finer points.

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    Re: 68 pattern

    Post by thunderchild on Sun May 01, 2016 6:45 pm

    james ill be honest ,ive never seen or heard any referance to a two point chinstrap with cup on an m76 para helmet ,can you back up your claims with some valid referance material please id be gratefull to see it ,i would argue the toss we are seeing a mk6 as you can see the extended profile of the side visor mounts even through that  dpm cover and im not aware of any para helmet shell with these ,just to show a side profile of the helmets in my collection ,the forementioned mk6 trials against the low dome para lightweight and the picture taken from RAF regiment gunner's thread from http://1982militariaforum.forumcommunity.net/?t=55103480  your thoughts please

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    Re: 68 pattern

    Post by thunderchild on Mon May 02, 2016 9:05 am

    James k i do hope to hear from you and your expert advice again on my thread and not disappear from the radar completely ,but if you do your absence will say a thousand words ,well  seeing as your such a stickler to go over the finer points  I'm willing to go along for the ride ,so lets recap ,your saying the helmet pictured in the above link is a para helmet ,and i quote your words (GRP para helmet looked like the MK6 and it had two alternative straps)  i'm fully aware of these two straps are you ? come on a two point para chinstrap are you serious , again pictures would be beneficial to validate you claim but im sure you confusing yourself with the MKII Parachute Helmet which was used by Royal Armoured corps With a new liner and two point chinstrap. Point number 2  ,the turtle being worn backwards that's a new one on me ,im not saying it didn't as ive seen referance pictures of middle eastern armies wearing  them in this fashion out in the desert perhaps due to the sun or the fact they don't know the front of the helmet from the rear ,again referance picture's would help me out just to get it into my thick head

    Ok finer point number 3 and which gulf 91 (Richard) asked the original question in post 6 which you seemed to ignore so ill ask it again seeing as its my thread and ill quote you if it helps jog your memory (the  Northern Ireland Patrol helmet which it had been derived from (essentially they were the same thing) what does essentially mean ,if we are going down the route of finer points then they are worlds apart my friend unless you know something i don't
    again i quote your words ( the 58 Webbing I'd suggest moving all the pouches as close together as they will go towards the rear. That way when soldiers went prone (on their belly) the pouches didn't impale them.) well i think I've established this is only a mannequin unless I've been very ill of late Smile but if i ever set up the display again correctly as told and the wind does catch the display and it topples over all will be well
    as for the Norwegian shirt i'm happy that your happy its correct for period and if it helps you to sleep at night yes this mannequin was issued it in Norway
    please do not take my words as criticism james k and hope to hear from you soon
    cheers james

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    Re: 68 pattern

    Post by James K on Mon May 02, 2016 1:47 pm

    I said two alternative straps meaning leather or webbing not a two point strap (the only two point straps were only used on the 44 pattern or RAC steel helmets used by the RN)

    The Para helmet was a development of the earlier NI helmet. The Para helmet was developed from the NI helmet as a possible GS issue, they both had the same leather strap which partially covered the cheeks and the padded lining was the same - very dense expanded polystyrene . The difference was in the weight and construction, the only obvious visual difference being that the rim around the bottom was very slightly more pronounced on the NI helmet and you could fit a visor to it.  When covered the NI helmet and the para helmet look like the later GS MK6 in side profile when covered but not the front as the extensions for the ear defenders/radio earpiece change the shape considerably from the front, one could be mistaken for the other.

    As for the GS MK6 Helmet being a trials piece from 1982 it simply isn't they had not been designed then. All intentions at that time were toward a GS heavy version of the para helmet - the shell being similar or copied from the Israeli design of the period which was initially produced in the UK (the design not the helmet). And even that wasn't issued as a trial item!

    Th reason why the 44 pattern helmet was often worn backwards was to prevent it from tipping over the eyes, especially when the 58 Patt sleeping bag was worn on top of the large pack - it was impossible to go prone with the helmet worn correctly.  Many TA units and some regular were allowed to wear US or US style helmets providing the shape was disguised by scrim.

    I was trying to help but you seem to be taking it the wrong way, that's fine you carry on and I simply won't pass any comment which might be of assistance in future.

    You have some nice gear, carry on as you wish, it's none of my business.


    Last edited by James K on Mon May 02, 2016 2:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: 68 pattern

    Post by James K on Mon May 02, 2016 2:11 pm

    Gulf91 wrote:e Northern Ireland Patrol helmet which it had been derived from (essentially they were the same thing)

    Would be interested to see pics of the NI helmet used in The Falklands as its a new one on me and they are nothing alike apart from the chin/neck type straps.

    I'd be interested to see an image of the helmet you are thinking of as from memory the ones I was issued with were the same/similar.  I suspect that we are talking about the same helmet as you mention the leather strap which covered part of the cheeks.

    When covered the difference between the Para/NI helmet is difficult to see and one was developed from the other as I mentioned above.

    http://www.gostak.co.uk/composites/uk/

    If you check these web pages you will see a Hansard account of a discussion which stated that the first issue of the GS MK6 was 1984/5

    It also has exceptional images of both the Para helmet and the NI helmet, which in profile are very similar and have similar but not exactly the same Poly liners and the same leather straps. With a DPM or other cover one could easily be mistaken for the other. Check for yourself! I was working from memory that web page confirms it wasn't entirely wrong. Anyway I'm done, I'm not a collector just interested in the subject as between 1980 and 2012 I used mist of this stuff (1977 in you include cadets) and for the last five years my son has been using new stuff as well. I wasn't trying to criticise just provide insight by a long term user, clearly I was wrong to offer.


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    Re: 68 pattern

    Post by Gulf91 on Mon May 02, 2016 3:09 pm

    James K wrote:
    Gulf91 wrote:e Northern Ireland Patrol helmet which it had been derived from (essentially they were the same thing)

    Would be interested to see pics of the NI helmet used in The Falklands as its a new one on me and they are nothing alike apart from the chin/neck type straps.

    I'd be interested to see an image of the helmet you are thinking of as from memory the ones I was issued with were the same/similar.  I suspect that we are talking about the same helmet as you mention the leather strap which covered part of the cheeks.

    When covered the difference between the Para/NI helmet is difficult to see and one was developed from the other as I mentioned above.

    http://www.gostak.co.uk/composites/uk/

    If you check these web pages you will see a Hansard account of a discussion which stated that the first issue of the GS MK6 was 1984/5

    It also has exceptional images of both the Para helmet and the NI helmet, which in profile are very similar and have similar but not exactly the same Poly liners and the same leather straps.  With a DPM or other cover one could easily be mistaken for the other.  Check for yourself!  I was working from memory that web page confirms it wasn't entirely wrong.  Anyway I'm done, I'm not a collector just interested in the subject as between 1980 and 2012 I used mist of this stuff (1977 in you include cadets) and for the last five years my son has been using new stuff as well.  I wasn't trying to criticise just provide insight by a long term user, clearly I was wrong to offer.


    I have 2 NI helmets(may well be pictures of them on here) and not sure where you get your facts from James but apart from the profile being slightly similar to the Lightweight Parachutist Helmet and as said the green chin/neck straps being pretty much the same,thats where the similarities end and the liners are nothing at all alike in any way.

    Also,whats this 44 pattern helmet that you are referring to James?

    Thanks.

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    Re: 68 pattern

    Post by James K on Mon May 02, 2016 3:47 pm

    Gulf91 wrote:
    James K wrote:
    Gulf91 wrote:e Northern Ireland Patrol helmet which it had been derived from (essentially they were the same thing)

    Would be interested to see pics of the NI helmet used in The Falklands as its a new one on me and they are nothing alike apart from the chin/neck type straps.

    I'd be interested to see an image of the helmet you are thinking of as from memory the ones I was issued with were the same/similar.  I suspect that we are talking about the same helmet as you mention the leather strap which covered part of the cheeks.

    When covered the difference between the Para/NI helmet is difficult to see and one was developed from the other as I mentioned above.

    http://www.gostak.co.uk/composites/uk/

    If you check these web pages you will see a Hansard account of a discussion which stated that the first issue of the GS MK6 was 1984/5

    It also has exceptional images of both the Para helmet and the NI helmet, which in profile are very similar and have similar but not exactly the same Poly liners and the same leather straps.  With a DPM or other cover one could easily be mistaken for the other.  Check for yourself!  I was working from memory that web page confirms it wasn't entirely wrong.  Anyway I'm done, I'm not a collector just interested in the subject as between 1980 and 2012 I used mist of this stuff (1977 in you include cadets) and for the last five years my son has been using new stuff as well.  I wasn't trying to criticise just provide insight by a long term user, clearly I was wrong to offer.


    I have 2 NI helmets(may well be pictures of them on here) and not sure where you get your facts from James but apart from the profile being slightly similar to the Lightweight Parachutist Helmet and as said the green chin/neck straps being pretty much the same,thats where the similarities end and the liners are nothing at all alike in any way.

    Also,whats this 44 pattern helmet that you are referring to James?

    Thanks.

    I might be using the wrong terminology for the steel helmet but the first issue of that style shell is described as the 1944 Pattern so that's what I called it.

    Earlier you said that the NI Helmet and the Lightweight Para Helmet were nothing like each other except for the leather strap now you admit that in profile they are similar!

    The NI Helmet is GRP so is the Para Helmet, the NI helmet had an expanded poly liner so did the para helmet (they were different in construction but similar in principle)  One was developed from the other.

    Where do I get my information from?  Firstly as I already said experience I have used most of this stuff, secondly from the MOD who I work for and the pattern room for clothing and equipment like this in Abbey Wood is just a phone call away! Unlike some people who collect and make strange claims I know because I used the damn stuff and it made an impression on me OR I checked with other users or the organisation which procured it.

    Anyway I'm done, I'll just observe from now on.

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    Re: 68 pattern

    Post by thunderchild on Tue May 03, 2016 2:42 pm

    James k thanks for taking the time to reply ,I'm still trying to fully digest what you said  but hope we could continue the discussion along with your help ,perhaps your finer points were slightly out of context and for that I'd like to apologise ,if we are to look at the finer points of one topic then its fair to say we should pursue the finer points of other's mentioned in the same thread ,the helmet's in particular and to see it from my perspective aside from tracking down the gear a lot of work  goes into setting up a half decent uniform display to share on here but i just felt that all the criticism was at my expense ,i wont be setting myself up for another  fall here in the future but that's by the by
    I'll be honest I'm still struggling to convince myself that the helmet picture referenced( above san carlos water ) in the David Reynolds book is a para helmet and not a mk6 trials irrespective of whether post 1982 or not
    i wanted to repost the picture to show the side profile's compared to the two example's i show but thought best not to due to perhaps copyright infringements ,you can understand my keenness to find out as my main pursuit is as a helmet collector first and foremost from all time periods ,uniforms and kit are still a new venture to me hence the reason they just don't cut the mustard with some people and as for the mk6 trials helmet  mine is one of the two example's referenced on the aforementioned  "COMPOSITE" ,so you can see my reasons why I'm keen for answer's
    james

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    Re: 68 pattern

    Post by James K on Tue May 03, 2016 4:50 pm

    If the picture you refer to is of the blowpipe air defence gunner then I'd suggest it is the NI helmet with the leather chinstrap replaced.  if anyone in the world knows when the first issues of the GS MK6 helmet were made it would be the organisation which brought it and provided the minister with the definitive reply of 1984 in the Hansard document I linked.

    I remember the period well and all sorts of helmets were knocking around including the Bristol Plastics one mentioned in the link, most were privately purchased or acquired. For the rest of us mortals the best option was the US steel pot with scrim to disguise the shape.

    Where the GS MK6 helmet has distinctive ear piece extensions the NI helmet did not they were simply a flare and not as pronounced as it looks on some photos.  Add a cover and change the chin strap and you have a vague resemblance to the GS MK6 or Para Helmet.

    It may have been one of the various trials helmets BUT an early GS MK6 it was not.

    As I mentioned I was a full time historian with the MOD, now I am a historical consultant with the MOD (self employed) my first source is my memory which is pretty sound but I can and do confirm these details when I am not sure, the pattern room staff at Abbey Wood are 99% reliable.

    And I genuinely wasn't simply criticising, just offering my experience with this type of kit to help I'm not a collector but the subject is close to my heart as I used almost all this kit myself (often having to fight to get it). More importantly I hate it when people try to do that one upmanship stuff, it isn't something I do. I may let my enthusiasm get the better of me but it's genuine not criticism when I see a really good display and all the details are known and correct nothing gives me more pleasure. In short I was just trying to help.

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    Re: 68 pattern

    Post by James K on Tue May 03, 2016 5:01 pm

    dee222 wrote:I think you will find its the old style nylon rank that's missing could be sgt or staff sgt by the size of the hole .

    Those things were foul melting when you ironed them or fraying over time.

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    Re: 68 pattern

    Post by thunderchild on Wed May 04, 2016 2:44 pm

    Evening james ,thank you for replying and glad your still having an active involvement on this thread ,and also for explaining more about your background ,the dummy i spat is back in my mouth now , i have heard a few stories from friends mentioning the use of private purchase kit ,the use of the american m1 helmet though really is an eye opener  as for the helmet shown in the link your comments do fight a good corner ,im quite intrigued as to how the two point chinstrap would terminate ,you mention the chinstrap may of been swapped out ,is it possible this could just be a stripped down original strap devoid of the leather cheek pieces ,this process would also remove the rear yoke strap's at the same time ,by the way i am no expert on the NI riot helmet or how its composed ,its hard to tell from that photograph if the strap webbing is green like my example or black ,one theory im bringing to the table is ,could it be that the  swapped out chinstrap  might of been derived from the (art  anti riot topper ,this as far as im aware has a two point strap albeit for a covering ,one thing is for certain that chincup is near identical ,having said all that one point id like to make if this helmet was a NI helmet 'the chinstrap termination would be mounted much further towards the front  the referance picture shows the termination  just front of the visor mount bulges as found on a mk6 trials

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    68 pattern

    Post by exwoofer on Mon May 09, 2016 12:16 pm

    This information comes from my original personal research and as such copyright applies.


    An interesting debate chaps and I am unsurprised at there being differences of opinion – as there are limited facts, on the MK 6, in the public domain.

    Before I provide some info I should say that I have been researching the MK 6 GS Helmet for a few years – which is how my material ended up on the http://www.gostak.co.uk/composites/uk/ website - I have been communicating with Greg (the site owner) for some time. I am the Richard Aixill mentioned on the site.

    My original intention was to write an article for the Armourer but they are only interested in WW2 period and earlier pieces. However, as I still hope to publish one day please forgive my inclusion of limited sources (although all my material and facts are well sourced).

    The MK 6 GS Helmet.

    The army’s casualty experience in Northern Ireland necessitated that an urgent effort be undertaken to produce a more suitable helmet – work that began in the early 1970s.

    (It should be noted that even despite the NI experience the clear need for an improved GS helmet had long been established and reported upon within Army higher authorities)

    These efforts first resulted in the Cromwell Anti-Riot Helmet or GRP Helmet (glass reinforced plastic) which began extended user trials within the province in May 1973.

    Whilst this provided a useful IS (Internal Security) helmet a more complete answer was still sought by way of a new General Service helmet. The Helmet Combat NI was an attempt to fulfil this requirement and this went on extended user trials in NI during 1975. Although the lining and chin strap required more work the basic shape of this helmet set the style of what was to come.

    Feedback from these user trials firmed up the requirement and formal development work on the MK 6 was started in c1979 – conducted by SCRDE  (Stores Clothing Research and Development Establishment).

    Trials of the prototype MK 6 started in 1981 – this helmet had a recognisable MK 6 profile albeit with a two attachment point chin harness.

    I believe it is this helmet that is pictured in use in (not necessarily during) the Falklands – as worn by, I believe, ADT, 3 Brigade Commando. I have been informed from a number of sources that this unit was trailing the prototype MK 6 at the time of the conflict – although photographic evidence is lacking (the pic from the link http://1982militariaforum.forumcommunity.net/?t=55103480 – is inconclusive as other photographs of this exact fighting position suggest it may have been taken after the end of hostilities). My reasoning for this includes that the chin strap arrangement fits with that used on the prototype MK 6 and with no other helmet that I am aware of.

    Following successful user trials, the MK 6 pattern was standardized in 1984 and general issue commenced in 1985.

    During 1984 – 1986 I regularly worked with ITDU (Infantry Trials and Development Unit) where I used and helped trial numerous items of prototype equipment. For the record I was first issued my own MK 6 in March 1986 - my unit at that time 1 DERR received their first issues of MK 6 helmets in November/December 1985.


    Last edited by exwoofer on Mon May 09, 2016 12:18 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : name correction)

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    Re: 68 pattern

    Post by James K on Wed May 11, 2016 2:54 pm

    Whilst I don't dispute what you say the records of the pattern room at Abbey Wood use a slightly different timeline. That said mistakes can and do happen.

    Thanks for the info

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