Some Recent modern Belgian finds

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    michelwijnand
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    Post by michelwijnand on Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:56 pm

    Some more Belgian stuff again, straight from Belgium at the fair in Ciney.

    First an early 90's type Jigsaw body armor, an M71 buttpack with snap buttons, and 2 different M71 magpouches, 1 the 1st type
    with twistlock and the other I believe a 90's type with US Alice style buckle, it might be for the FNC, I'll compare the sizes of them both later.

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    Then a simple armlet and 2 pairs of 1st Sergeant rankslides, the old type.

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    A really cheap partial M71 webbing I couldn't pass up, I might make an early 90's loadout with the armor and webbing, maybe over some older
    Jigsaw summer suit like used in Rwanda etc.
    I'll replace the magazine pouches with another type for that though.

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    And 2 types of 2-piece ISAF patches, 1 set in color and the other in Belgian Desert camo.

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    Post by Wolverine on Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:34 pm

    Great stuff - the pouch with the ALICE closure is for the FNC I think.
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    Post by michelwijnand on Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:43 pm

    Yeah it is actually longer
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    Post by CollectinSteve on Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:39 pm

    Great finds! That early Jigsaw frag vest is pretty rare, as I understand it.

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    Post by michelwijnand on Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:02 pm

    Thanks! It was the last find of the day and I was quite surprised nobody else picked it up by that time.
    Now if only I find the completely green type next time I'd have found 3 rare Belgian armors in a row in consecutive Ciney fairs Smile
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    Post by masive on Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:15 am

    I saw the body armor and thought to buy it. But I didn't, because I searched for a newer one.

    May I ask how much you pay for it?
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    Post by michelwijnand on Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:12 pm

    Sure, it was €40
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    Post by CollectinSteve on Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:00 pm

    That's a great price! I think I spent that much in postage to get mine from Belgium Wink

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    Post by Wolverine on Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:01 pm

    I had never seen the type without the collar before. Are they quite scarce?
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    Post by michelwijnand on Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:06 pm

    Yeah it's an early model, I've seen 4 or 5 I think, though I haven't been actively searching, but still
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    Post by michelwijnand on Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:30 am

    Found some more stuff.

    Some rankslides (ignore the British one, came with the same shipment). The top 2 are subdued and one-sided, the bottom 3 reverse from fullcolor to subdued.

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    Then a 1992 dated pre-ripstop Jigsaw shirt, I also have trousers on the way dated even earlier.

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    And from these items it's just the UN cap that was Belgian used.

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    Post by CollectinSteve on Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:57 pm

    Pre 1997 Jigsaw items in ripstop? I don't think I've ever seen anything that early. In fact, I'm sure I haven't. Are you sure about the date?

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    Post by michelwijnand on Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:46 pm

    I think you're reading too fast Wink
    It says 1992 dated pre-ripstop, so not ripstop but the older fabric
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    Post by Wolverine on Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:29 am

    Nice UN cap - I have one like it also that is named and unit-marked. I was able to trace the name to a video posted on Youtube that was made during UNPROFOR.
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    Post by CollectinSteve on Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:20 am

    michelwijnand wrote:I think you're reading too fast Wink
    It says 1992 dated pre-ripstop, so not ripstop but the older fabric

    With my lack of sleep these days if I don't read fast I'll fall asleep while reading Wink Yes, that makes much more sense!

    The poplin hot weather uniform was manufactured in the 1980s through at least 1995. The cloth was used since the 1970s for the 8 pocket "Commando" trousers, but I don't recall if the two piece uniform started production that early or not.

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    Post by michelwijnand on Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:28 pm

    Haha ok so now it's clear Smile

    And I have no idea how early they started that either, the pants I have on the way is dated 1987, but I'm not exactly sure what cut it is as the pic was pretty fuzzy, though I'm inclined to think it could match the above shirt in type.

    The commando trousers, is that the type with the snap button cargo pockets?
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    Post by CollectinSteve on Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:49 pm

    If the trousers are standard 6 pocket type, then it is a match for your jacket even if the dates are quite different. As far as I remember there is no difference in the two piece uniform design throughout production.

    The commando pants were issued to Para/Commandos as early as 1967 in normal cotton cloth. Sometime after, IIRC at least as early as 1972 (I am away from my collection at the moment), the lightweight poplin was also used for the trousers. There's extremely rare Brushstroke trousers in the poplin as well.

    The trousers have two hand pockets, two rear pockets, two thigh pockets, and two calf pockets. The pockets are all pointed type with single exposed buttons.

    I don't recall any Belgian trousers with snaps on the leg pockets.

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    Post by michelwijnand on Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:25 pm

    And the pants came in today, 1987 dated, 6-pocket, white inside with green threads, cargo pockets with a single exposed button.

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    I didn't know so many versions, just the 1958 suit (in various small variaions in terms of button types etc.), the para smock, parka with snap button square pockets,
    this summer suit and IIRC some summer suit with red thread or something. And of course the later ripstop types but that's another issue.
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    Post by CollectinSteve on Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:37 pm

    Very nice condition!  These items were generally worn out and destroyed as the cloth is very thin.  Often I've seen them in generally good condition, but the knees are nearly "white" from wear.  Rips and repairs are often found.

    The red thread is associated with samples for evaluation.  Sometimes it is for a brand new design, sometimes it seems it's for quality control purposes for new production of an existing design.  I say this because I have examples of both unique and standard items with red thread.

    Belgian camouflage is a fun thing to collect.  There are tons of things to collect.  I think I started a thread about the various different types, but I can't find it.  All I found was the ripstop variants:

    http://iacmc.forumotion.com/t12369-belgian-jigsaw-ripstop-variants

    I found some notes for Jigsaw trousers:

    1. 3 pocket canvas (1958 and a few in the early 1960s)
    2. 8 pocket in either poplin or lightweight cotton (1967 through 1970s)
    3. 6 pocket poplin (late 1970s through 1980s)
    4. 5 pocket cotton (limited early 1990s issue)
    5. 6 pocket in two different types of ripstop and one type of heavy cotton (1997-2012?)

    And some notes on the various smocks/jackets in Moon & Balls and Brush Stroke patterns:

    M&B Smocks/Trousers -> 1952-1955
    Brush Smocks/Trousers -> 1954-1955
    M&B/Brush Jackets (Snaps)/Trousers -> 1956
    M&B/Brush Jackets (Buttons)/Trousers -> 1956
    Brush Smock -> 1975 (not sure if there are other years)
    Brush 8 pocket poplin trousers -> don't know date, but probably 1970s

    At some point I should document everything I know of in one place.

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    Post by Wolverine on Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:34 pm

    Steve, you should write a book.
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    Post by CollectinSteve on Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:42 pm

    The thought has crossed my mind! I have a good title for it too...

    "Silly Little Camo Details, and other Militaria Nonsense only 100 people care about" Very Happy

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    Post by HEB on Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:47 pm

    Hey Guys!

    I am new here. I recently start to collect some belgian stuff. This is my latest find:

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    Unfortunalty it has a cut on the back.
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    Post by michelwijnand on Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:07 pm

    Still, nice to see one in Desert, good catch.

    And welcome!
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    Post by CollectinSteve on Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:23 am

    Welcome and that's a very nice find! Very hard to find. Despite the cut the condition is very good. The few I've seen are pretty beat up all over.

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    Post by HEB on Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:29 am

    Yeterday i got my reversablie fleece jacket. I think it's in a quite good condition. It is sizs S. I think it´s a bit too wide at the belly!?

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