Some Belgium Helmets / Casques

    Share
    avatar
    Antarmike
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Name : Mike Fincher
    Age : 64
    Location : Lincolnshire United Kingdom
    Registration date : 2016-12-07
    Number of posts : 264

    Some Belgium Helmets / Casques

    Post by Antarmike on Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:00 pm

    I have decided to try and replace some of the pbhoto in tensive threads i started that wee lost when Photobucket tried to blackmail me, and i refused to pay,  I will start with some Helmets, some you have seen on here, even though the pictures have long gone, a few are new

    Nearest M71 with french suspension, beside M71 with belgian suspension syste,
    print screen windows xp
    and inside of same Belgian on left/ french on right

    Tanlers /armoured vehicle crew helmet

    M51 left, tanker's helmet right

    Inside US ballistic adopted by ABL and right a fairly common M51 again.

    Inside M51's airforce and UN.



    Postimage playing up yonight, and one out of focus shot to retake tomorrow,,,,
    avatar
    Antarmike
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Name : Mike Fincher
    Age : 64
    Location : Lincolnshire United Kingdom
    Registration date : 2016-12-07
    Number of posts : 264

    Re: Some Belgium Helmets / Casques

    Post by Antarmike on Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:28 am

    M71 Helmets, On the left the French system adopted by the Belgians for this helmet, On the right the Belgian system, that was replaced on taler production.

    avatar
    CollectinSteve
    ADMIN
    ADMIN

    Location : New England, US
    Registration date : 2009-03-08
    Number of posts : 6219

    Re: Some Belgium Helmets / Casques

    Post by CollectinSteve on Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:34 am

    Nice collection! What years was the UK type helmet used for? I have one and not sure when in the 1950s it was discontinued.

    Note that the helmet next to the French one is German in origin. IIRC it is officially known as Model 1A1 Luftlandetruppenstahlhem, but commonly referred to as M61. As was, and still is, Germany and France provided lots and lots of helmets to the smaller European militaries. I don't know if they were surplus or if they were produced explicitly for the Belgians.

    Here's some shots of it with the BW netting on it:

    http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/bundeswehr-forum/bundeswehr-steel-helmets-29578/

    Steve
    avatar
    Antarmike
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Name : Mike Fincher
    Age : 64
    Location : Lincolnshire United Kingdom
    Registration date : 2016-12-07
    Number of posts : 264

    Re: Some Belgium Helmets / Casques

    Post by Antarmike on Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:20 pm

    CollectinSteve wrote:Nice collection!  What years was the UK type helmet used for?  I have one and not sure when in the 1950s it was discontinued.

    Note that the helmet next to the French one is German in origin.  IIRC it is officially known as Model 1A1 Luftlandetruppenstahlhem, but commonly referred to as M61.  As was, and still is, Germany and France provided lots and lots of helmets to the smaller European militaries.  I don't know if they were surplus or if they were produced explicitly for the Belgians.

    Here's some shots of it with the BW netting on it:

    http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/bundeswehr-forum/bundeswehr-steel-helmets-29578/

    Steve
    I am told the Brodie Helmet were made (by FN) from 49 to 53.  How long they stayed in service after that I do not know for sure.  The Tankers helmet by the way is dated 1960 inside the suspension system.

    Thanks for info on M61 I incorrectly identified as M71, but that was how it was described when I bought it. I will see if I can find any clues as to date or manufacturer, I have had the suspension out once becase there was a US woodland cover (remains off) that had once been fitted but then cut off leaving some trapped inside the helmet betwen the helmet and the suspension. My only thouht was to tidy up the helmet my removing this material, not looking for dates or makers marks.
    avatar
    Wolverine
    Captain
    Captain

    Name : Andrew
    Location : Canada
    Registration date : 2014-01-18
    Number of posts : 992

    Re: Some Belgium Helmets / Casques

    Post by Wolverine on Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:12 pm

    I hadn't seen the BW jump helmets referred to as M61 before. Do they date back that far?

    The Belgian example I have has the BW-type suspension and chinstrap, but a Belgian NSN. I will have to check to see who the maker was, but I don't think these were simply surplus helmets passed off to the Belgium.
    avatar
    CollectinSteve
    ADMIN
    ADMIN

    Location : New England, US
    Registration date : 2009-03-08
    Number of posts : 6219

    Re: Some Belgium Helmets / Casques

    Post by CollectinSteve on Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:24 pm

    Helmet talk... always an enjoyable experience Wink

    For sure the Bundeswehr started using the helmets in 1961. I've got pics of one dated April 1961. I'm away from my books so I can't give exact details.

    The BW adopted the US style shell with WW2 style leather liner and straps after several batches of helmets (including the WW2 M38) were rejected. The rest of the Bundeswehr got helmets with webbing neck straps without screw lugs soon after.

    I'm pretty sure the Belgian production was specifically for them and not surplus, but there could have been a mix. A few years ago Sportsmans Guide was selling these and I picked one up. It has the remains of a Jigsaw helmet cover on it. The practice was to put the cover on and then screw the strap lugs through it. A black rubber band was heat shrunk around the rim.

    Mike, it wouldn't surprise me if the Belgian designation is M71. I don't know what the Belgians called it, but I doubt it would be the same as the Germans.

    Thanks for the date range. That makes sense to me. I have pics of a US type two piece Belgian helmet
    with a clear ABL 1955 stamp in it. So at the very least they moved to US type at that time.

    Steve

    avatar
    Wolverine
    Captain
    Captain

    Name : Andrew
    Location : Canada
    Registration date : 2014-01-18
    Number of posts : 992

    Re: Some Belgium Helmets / Casques

    Post by Wolverine on Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:42 pm

    The M71 designation may well apply to the ABL version of the BW model, since the Belgians were using the British-type jump helmet until relatively late.
    avatar
    Antarmike
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Name : Mike Fincher
    Age : 64
    Location : Lincolnshire United Kingdom
    Registration date : 2016-12-07
    Number of posts : 264

    Re: Some Belgium Helmets / Casques

    Post by Antarmike on Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:55 am

    Wolverine wrote:I hadn't seen the BW jump helmets referred to as M61 before. Do they date back that far?

    The Belgian example I have has the BW-type suspension and chinstrap, but a Belgian NSN. I will have to check to see who the maker was, but I don't think these were simply surplus helmets passed off to the Belgium.
    Several sites confirm introduced in 1961. One site calls it M61 but that, being honest,  is probably un-official  designation.

    https://www.world-war-helmets.com/fiche?q=Casque-Ouest-Allemand-Modell-1A1-Luftlandetruppenstahlhelm
    avatar
    Antarmike
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Name : Mike Fincher
    Age : 64
    Location : Lincolnshire United Kingdom
    Registration date : 2016-12-07
    Number of posts : 264

    Re: Some Belgium Helmets / Casques

    Post by Antarmike on Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:25 am

    CollectinSteve wrote:Helmet talk... always an enjoyable experience Wink

     It has the remains of a Jigsaw helmet cover on it.  The practice was to put the cover on and then screw the strap lugs through it.  A black rubber band was heat shrunk around the rim.



    Mine had US woodland cover screwed through the lugs when I got it but most had bbeen cut off, so I took out the remains.



    I wonder if 02 signifies 2002 as a date for the cover, If so it must have been fitted pretty near the end of the helmets service life?
    avatar
    Antarmike
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Name : Mike Fincher
    Age : 64
    Location : Lincolnshire United Kingdom
    Registration date : 2016-12-07
    Number of posts : 264

    Re: Some Belgium Helmets / Casques

    Post by Antarmike on Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:02 am

    Regarding the jump helmets I have found quite a lengthy explanation on a facebook group.

    The key points claimed there is the 1A1 LL was introduced into the BW in 1961.  

    In the late 60's the Belgians were still using WW2 era British Mark II AT paratrooper helmet and Belgian-made clones of the same helmet.
    It was only in the late 60's early 70's that Belgium identified the need for a new jump helmet.

    The Belgians did not adopt the 1A1 LL style helmet with the German suspension system until 1971, which is why the helmet was given the M71 designation in Belgium.

    The Helmet with the French suspension was not introduced in Belgium until the 1980's.  These were conversions of the earlier German suspension system helmets they already had, rather than a new production run, and that four of the plastic plugs fill the previous, now unused holes in the helmet, whilst other mount the new suspension.

    There does not seem to be a new designation for the modified Helmet, which continued to be identified as M71.
    avatar
    Antarmike
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Name : Mike Fincher
    Age : 64
    Location : Lincolnshire United Kingdom
    Registration date : 2016-12-07
    Number of posts : 264

    Re: Some Belgium Helmets / Casques

    Post by Antarmike on Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:52 am

    CollectinSteve wrote:Helmet talk... always an enjoyable experience Wink

     I have pics of a US type two piece Belgian helmet
    with a clear ABL 1955 stamp in it.  So at the very least they moved to US type at that time.

    Steve

    Both my Belgian M51 helmets have similar dated liners Both are by COGEBI (the Belgian General Insulation Company)  and both appear to be dated 1955 (one is clearer than the other but looking through an eyeglass I am 90% sure both say 1955.





    Last edited by Antarmike on Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:09 am; edited 1 time in total
    avatar
    CollectinSteve
    ADMIN
    ADMIN

    Location : New England, US
    Registration date : 2009-03-08
    Number of posts : 6219

    Re: Some Belgium Helmets / Casques

    Post by CollectinSteve on Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:03 am

    M71 mystery solved Smile

    OK, looks like the M51 had a healthy production run in 1955. The Belgians tended to purchase large amounts of stuff and then live off of them for ages.

    BTW, the Belgian military put out an edict in the mid 2000s that forbid the use of non-issued camo, even for Para/Commandos. That was when the current ripstop uniforms became available in sufficient quantities. Up until then the Para/Commandos could wear pretty much anything they wanted, including foreign camo.

    Steve
    avatar
    Wolverine
    Captain
    Captain

    Name : Andrew
    Location : Canada
    Registration date : 2014-01-18
    Number of posts : 992

    Re: Some Belgium Helmets / Casques

    Post by Wolverine on Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:00 am

    The contract date on the ERDL cover is 1981.
    avatar
    Antarmike
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Name : Mike Fincher
    Age : 64
    Location : Lincolnshire United Kingdom
    Registration date : 2016-12-07
    Number of posts : 264

    Re: Some Belgium Helmets / Casques

    Post by Antarmike on Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:24 am

    Wolverine wrote:The contract date on the ERDL cover is 1981.
    Thanks for Info.
    avatar
    Wolverine
    Captain
    Captain

    Name : Andrew
    Location : Canada
    Registration date : 2014-01-18
    Number of posts : 992

    Re: Some Belgium Helmets / Casques

    Post by Wolverine on Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:13 pm

    Mike, can I add some images of my helmets here?
    avatar
    Antarmike
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Name : Mike Fincher
    Age : 64
    Location : Lincolnshire United Kingdom
    Registration date : 2016-12-07
    Number of posts : 264

    Re: Some Belgium Helmets / Casques

    Post by Antarmike on Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:15 am

    Wolverine wrote:Mike, can I add some images of my helmets here?
    of course you may, I like to see what is in other peoples Belgian collection, then I know what I need to search out!
    avatar
    Antarmike
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Name : Mike Fincher
    Age : 64
    Location : Lincolnshire United Kingdom
    Registration date : 2016-12-07
    Number of posts : 264

    Re: Some Belgium Helmets / Casques

    Post by Antarmike on Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:06 am

    CollectinSteve wrote:..........  I have pics of a US type two piece Belgian helmet
    with a clear ABL 1955 stamp in it.  So at the very least they moved to US type at that time.

    Steve

    1952 dated M51 US style helmet,  Library pictures , not one of my helmets.

    I have not yet seen anything to date one to 1951, but I guess they are out there somewhere.


    avatar
    Antarmike
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Name : Mike Fincher
    Age : 64
    Location : Lincolnshire United Kingdom
    Registration date : 2016-12-07
    Number of posts : 264

    Re: Some Belgium Helmets / Casques

    Post by Antarmike on Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:50 pm

    Just bought a Belgian MkIII (turtle helmet) by Sartel.   Photos are from Ebay listing, not my photos, ( person selling obviously does not know front from back)   I will get some of my own picture up here soon, but do we know whether it would have an elastic or a canvas chin strap.   (It came with speaker wire and I am anxious to replace with something that is more suitable)

    I am told Belgian MkIIIs are quite rare, and some of those that survive get passed off as WW2 British D Day helmets.   Interested to know how rare or otherwise genuine Belgian produced MkIIIs are.  (This one is dated 1951 and size 54).  Shame the National Flag transfer is incomplete.  Are these transfers obtainable or being reproduced?






    Last edited by Antarmike on Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:26 pm; edited 2 times in total
    avatar
    Antarmike
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Name : Mike Fincher
    Age : 64
    Location : Lincolnshire United Kingdom
    Registration date : 2016-12-07
    Number of posts : 264

    Re: Some Belgium Helmets / Casques

    Post by Antarmike on Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:03 pm

    Model 1A1 Luftlandetruppenstahlhem.

    Still trying to work out the chronology.

    I had always assumed they were originally bought from the Germans with a german suspension syste.  At some time the helmets were converted to a French suspension system, and the holes left where the German suspension was taken out were filled with rivets.

    That would make  those with Germn suspension, the older of the two types,  But I have just bought this unissued example, that has a Belgian NSN and seems relatively new production.  

    It does not have a Belgian national flag decal.  Could it be Belgian produced for export, rather than a German supplied helmet bought by the Belgians?
    The NSN Country code usually (but not always) is the country that produced the item. in some instances it might be the country which was the first to codify the item—which one first recognized it as an important item of supply, although they themselves did not make the item.

    I will have to take out the suspension to see what is printed under the headband.


    pic hosting


    Gulf91
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Age : 47
    Location : Wales
    Registration date : 2011-05-13
    Number of posts : 3836

    Re: Some Belgium Helmets / Casques

    Post by Gulf91 on Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:46 am

    Antarmike wrote:Just bought a Belgian MkIII (turtle helmet) by Sartel.   Photos are from Ebay listing, not my photos, ( person selling obviously does not know front from back)   I will get some of my own picture up here soon, but do we know whether it would have an elastic or a canvas chin strap.   (It came with speaker wire and I am anxious to replace with something that is more suitable)

    I am told Belgian MkIIIs are quite rare, and some of those that survive get passed off as WW2 British D Day helmets.   Interested to know how rare or otherwise genuine Belgian produced MkIIIs are.  (This one is dated 1951 and size 54).  Shame the National Flag transfer is incomplete.  Are these transfers obtainable or being reproduced?





    Very nice and would love to add one to my collection.

    As most of the,what I think are WW2 British MKIIIs have no visible stamps due to either poor stamping or repaints,I would be interested how to distinguish the two apart(obviously not the liners) incase I may have a Belgian one or two amongst the 10 or so I have.

    Many Thanks

    avatar
    Antarmike
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Name : Mike Fincher
    Age : 64
    Location : Lincolnshire United Kingdom
    Registration date : 2016-12-07
    Number of posts : 264

    Re: Some Belgium Helmets / Casques

    Post by Antarmike on Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:41 am

    [quote="Gulf91"

    Very nice and would love to add one to my collection.

    As most of the,what I think are WW2 British MKIIIs have no visible stamps due to either poor stamping or repaints,I would be interested how to distinguish the two apart(obviously not the liners) incase I may have a Belgian one or two amongst the 10 or so I have.

    Many Thanks

    [/quote]
    AFAIK the rivets holding the chinstrap are set higher on the Belgian produced MkIII. Although the British moved the chin strap up in later prodiction, the rivet on the Belgian version ia at least 5 mm higher.

    I also read that the rim is made from magnetic steel on the Belgian MkIII, not stainless steel used on the British MkIII.
    avatar
    Antarmike
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Name : Mike Fincher
    Age : 64
    Location : Lincolnshire United Kingdom
    Registration date : 2016-12-07
    Number of posts : 264

    Re: Some Belgium Helmets / Casques

    Post by Antarmike on Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:10 pm

    Antarmike wrote:
    AFAIK the rivets holding the chinstrap are set higher on the Belgian produced MkIII. Although the British moved the chin strap up in later prodiction, the rivet on the Belgian version ia at least 5 mm higher.

    I also read that the rim is made from magnetic steel on the Belgian MkIII,  not stainless steel used on the British MkIII.


    Don't post from memory!  I wish to correct this post.

    AFAIK The rim and lugs are made of magnetic steel (ie not stainless), the body is 5mm longer, and rivets are mounted 5mm lower
    avatar
    Antarmike
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Name : Mike Fincher
    Age : 64
    Location : Lincolnshire United Kingdom
    Registration date : 2016-12-07
    Number of posts : 264

    Re: Some Belgium Helmets / Casques

    Post by Antarmike on Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:45 pm

    Antarmike wrote:Model LA1 LL Luftlandetruppenstahlhem.

    Still trying to work out the chronology.

    I had always assumed they were originally bought from the Germans with a german suspension syste.  At some time the helmets were converted to a French suspension system, and the holes left where the German suspension was taken out were filled with rivets.

    That would make  those with Germn suspension, the older of the two types,  But I have just bought this unissued example, that has a Belgian NSN and seems relatively new production.  

    It does not have a Belgian national flag decal.  Could it be Belgian produced for export, rather than a German supplied helmet bought by the Belgians?
    The NSN Country code usually (but not always) is the country that produced the item.  in some instances it might be the country which was the first to codify the item—which one first recognized it as an important item of supply, although they themselves did not make the item.

    I will have to take out the suspension to see what is printed under the headband.


    pic hosting


    Above the NSN the writing reads SRFA 506011 M75.

    The Belgian Version differed from the German version by the addition of looped leather strap, that turns the strap from a chinstrap, into a cup.

    This simple strap might be why there is a unique Belgian NSN on the Helm???



    avatar
    Antarmike
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Name : Mike Fincher
    Age : 64
    Location : Lincolnshire United Kingdom
    Registration date : 2016-12-07
    Number of posts : 264

    Re: Some Belgium Helmets / Casques

    Post by Antarmike on Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:51 pm

    Antarmike wrote:M71 Helmets, On the left the French system adopted by the Belgians for this helmet, On the right the Belgian system, that was replaced on taler production.


    M71 Helmets, On the left the French system adopted by the Belgians for this helmet, On the right the German system, that was replaced on later production.

    I have found the following markings in white paint inside the shell SW-79 68 which I take to be Schubert Werke (19)79.

    Sponsored content

    Re: Some Belgium Helmets / Casques

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:00 pm