Flecktarn-different color versions

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    Philip
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    Flecktarn-different color versions

    Post by Philip on Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:59 am

    A guy sent me these pics showing color differences between standard (dark) and tropical (light) version of the German flecktarn camo.







    (picture property of Oliver S.)
    Thanks Oliver!

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    Re: Flecktarn-different color versions

    Post by CollectinSteve on Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:51 pm

    Yes, and I can verify that the colors are consistently like this. I think it has to do with the different cloth used on the Troppentarn (tropical) uniform vs. the 5-Farbe Flecktarn (regular).

    There are a couple of production color differences in the regular Flecktarn as well. The color differences are most noticeable after the items have been worn and washed quite a bit. The colors fade differently, but with some consistency from item to item. On some the brown fades to a lighter color, another goes to almost an orange. The greens also fade differently. I don't know how much difference there is when the uniforms are brand new.

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    Re: Flecktarn-different color versions

    Post by bond007a1 on Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:21 pm

    very intersting to know....I passed up buying a jacket of the light version, because I thought it was just faded out...dang

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    Re: Flecktarn-different color versions

    Post by CollectinSteve on Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:51 pm

    Yeah, even a near brand new tropical piece looks more subdued than the temperate type. I've got one that looks like the soldier might have worn it once or twice and it doesn't look much different than the pic above.

    Steven, I've got a spare, but no spare trousers. Just let me know if I should set it aside.

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    Re: Flecktarn-different color versions

    Post by Flecktarn Australia on Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:33 pm

    Here is "old" flecktarn (1990-2005) and "new" flecktarn (2005- now) side by side. Same camera used for both.

    Most noticeable is that the brown is less "red" and in fact almost looks a bit "orange" these days.



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    Re: Flecktarn-different color versions

    Post by Flecktarn Australia on Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:01 pm

    Here is a comparison between the Chinese reproduction flecktarn (which they use for their military cadets in north east China) and "real" flecktarn. Notice that brown and green has been inverted in the Chinese. I was lucky enough to get the same piece of the pattern in each sample for the comparisons!

    CHINESE flecktarn is the first one, 1990s flecktarn is the second, and 2000's flecktarn is third

    (Zoom your screen size out if you have to so all 3 fit on the same line for best comparison: ctrl + middle mouse wheel


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    Re: Flecktarn-different color versions

    Post by CollectinSteve on Sun Dec 25, 2011 9:11 pm

    Interesting that the Chinese flipped around a screen. I don't give the commercial stuff much of a look so I hadn't noticed.

    I've seen well over 100 pieces of Flecktarn in person and have probably 30 or so on hand at the moment. I can say that there is a lot of variation in colors after being washed a few times. There were also a couple large batches of cloth where the brown washed out to an almost orange color. I really like those Very Happy There is also quite a bit of variation in the light green.

    Here are some pictures I have handy of 4 jackets made between 1991 and 1994. These were chosen for the differences in construction, not colors, so they aren't necessarily great examples of the diversity of colors. They were all shot with the same camera and lighting conditions within minutes of each other.

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    Re: Flecktarn-different color versions

    Post by saltefanden on Thu Dec 29, 2011 2:53 pm

    Wow, I thought I had this flecktarn business well under control, but I guess you keep learning

    - especially with people like you gentlemen around!

    The Tropentarn in Philips' original post look almost 4-colour and not 5-colour, washed out as it may be.

    But does anyone know what 'vintages' or years of production to look for in Tropentarn jackets? Are there any other manufacturers or other ways to spot them apart from the colour scheme?

    I may have passed on a few jackets, like Steven, out of fear of washed out gear - double dang!

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    Re: Flecktarn-different color versions

    Post by Tophe on Sun Jan 01, 2012 3:20 pm

    Even on the same vest there are different flecktarn :



    Here are the collar (up) and the upper back (below) from one of the vest I have.

    You can see the use of 3 different fabric, between visible (outside) parts and hidden (inside) parts.
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    Re: Flecktarn-different color versions

    Post by CollectinSteve on Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:29 pm

    As far as I can tell there is no date related differences to the different variations of cloth. It's probably just manufacturing differences that have shown up over the years. As Tophe points out, it is sometimes possible to see the different variations in one uniform!

    There are a number of variations of Flecktarn uniforms. First, there are the 1987-1989 trials items. These are all clearly marked and show a progression from a near Moleskin type construction to the type that is still used today.

    Second, there were at least 7 variations of the mass produced uniform between 1991 and 1994. The three primary features to look for are brass vs. plastic snaps, arm pocket on the right instead of the left, and the use of velcro in addition to snaps for pocket flaps. The latter were sewn in two different ways. These differences are consistent for jacket, trousers, and parka as applicable. Look at the pictures I posted above to see some of these variations.

    Third, in 2004 (or 2003, I forget!) the BW adopted a lightweight version of standard Flecktarn ("5 Farben Tarndruck"). uniform. The construction is the same as the Tropentarn ("3 Farben Tarndruck") uniform. Mesh armpits and no zipper up the front. However, the big difference is the composition of the cloth. This is why the colors look very different from standard Flecktarn.

    And finally... there are the special issue uniforms intended for KSK and other special forces. The genuine issue examples are difficult to find, but there are a number of companies manufacturing pretty much the same thing for commercial and military private purchase markets. These uniforms are totally different from the standard issue ones.

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    Re: Flecktarn-different color versions

    Post by saltefanden on Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:16 pm

    Cheers Steve,

    Will keep my eyes peeled for all variations from now on!
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    Re: Flecktarn-different color versions

    Post by CollectinSteve on Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:52 am

    You should also keep your eyes open for ripstop Flecktarn in US ACU cut. It has US tags on it, but it was issued to DSO members serving in Bosnia a number of years ago. The soldier I bought it from said he was issued 2 sets. I bought one set and I think I have a spare jacket coming to me at some point. I've seen one other on German eBay.

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    Re: Flecktarn-different color versions

    Post by vonstuck on Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:24 pm



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    Re: Flecktarn-different color versions

    Post by Flecktarn Australia on Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:58 pm

    I might be wrong but it looks like the brown of the flecktarn uniforms manufactured by SPEKON (1990's) fade to more of a "red" as opposed to the newer uniforms manufactured by WAHLER which fade to more of an "orange." I have different pieces from 1994 - 2009 to make this comparison. The KOHLER products are made for KSK (Special Forces) under contract to the Bundeswehr. I have seen a brand new 2010 pair of KSK pants and they look more like the WAHLER colouring.

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    Re: Flecktarn-different color versions

    Post by Tophe on Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:22 pm

    Be carefull with ACU ripstop flecktarn. Sturm/Miltec is also doing it...
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    Re: Flecktarn-different color versions

    Post by CollectinSteve on Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:22 am

    Flecktarn Australia wrote:I might be wrong but it looks like the brown of the flecktarn uniforms manufactured by SPEKON (1990's) fade to more of a "red" as opposed to the newer uniforms manufactured by WAHLER which fade to more of an "orange." I have different pieces from 1994 - 2009 to make this comparison. The KOHLER products are made for KSK (Special Forces) under contract to the Bundeswehr. I have seen a brand new 2010 pair of KSK pants and they look more like the WAHLER colouring.

    It's true that the SPEKON mid to late 1990s stuff seems to be the bulk of the "fade to orange" cloth, but I've seen other companies with it. I can't remember which one off the top of my head, but for sure it's not just SPEKON. The chances are a couple of contractors went in on a big run of cloth and so it's all from the same batch. Or SPEKON sold off some of its cloth to a smaller contractor. Whatever the case, for sure it's not just SPEKON and the range of dates was (IIRC) 1994 through 1997 at least.

    To reinforce what Tophe said... BE VERY CAREFUL if you buy any Flecktarn items. Any. There's a ton of commercial stuff out there in standard cut, KSK/DSO cut, and fantasy cuts. I haven't seen anything in ACU design except the genuine one I have, but I wouldn't doubt it.

    BTW, you can buy a set of KSK/DSO Flecktarn on German eBay pretty much any day of the week. 99% of the stuff up there is commercial, though almost identical to the official stuff. Gotta look at the tags.

    Cheers,

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    Re: Flecktarn-different color versions

    Post by Flecktarn Australia on Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:42 pm

    CollectinSteve wrote:
    Flecktarn Australia wrote:I might be wrong but it looks like the brown of the flecktarn uniforms manufactured by SPEKON (1990's) fade to more of a "red" as opposed to the newer uniforms manufactured by WAHLER which fade to more of an "orange." I have different pieces from 1994 - 2009 to make this comparison. The KOHLER products are made for KSK (Special Forces) under contract to the Bundeswehr. I have seen a brand new 2010 pair of KSK pants and they look more like the WAHLER colouring.

    It's true that the SPEKON mid to late 1990s stuff seems to be the bulk of the "fade to orange" cloth, but I've seen other companies with it. I can't remember which one off the top of my head, but for sure it's not just SPEKON. The chances are a couple of contractors went in on a big run of cloth and so it's all from the same batch. Or SPEKON sold off some of its cloth to a smaller contractor. Whatever the case, for sure it's not just SPEKON and the range of dates was (IIRC) 1994 through 1997 at least.

    To reinforce what Tophe said... BE VERY CAREFUL if you buy any Flecktarn items. Any. There's a ton of commercial stuff out there in standard cut, KSK/DSO cut, and fantasy cuts. I haven't seen anything in ACU design except the genuine one I have, but I wouldn't doubt it.

    BTW, you can buy a set of KSK/DSO Flecktarn on German eBay pretty much any day of the week. 99% of the stuff up there is commercial, though almost identical to the official stuff. Gotta look at the tags.

    Cheers,

    Steve


    I just bought a Chinese made flecktarn "Special Forces" ACU - with big-ass velcro pockets on the arms, sloped front pockets, (more like a BDU than an ACU) and buttons, not zip or velcro front closure - like CRYE PRECISION's ACU cut. The pants are EXACT copies of LEO KOEHLER manufactured KSK pants. They are not ripstop (which is what I wanted, but nevermind) and they are in the Chinese German flecktarn pattern with the 2 reversed screens. THE FUNNY THING IS THIS: I have just recently noticed that Kyrgzhstan soldiers who wear flecktarn ACUs are wearing these same Chinese reversed screen flecktarn pattern ACUs! I am 99% sure I got that right. I guess being nextdoor neighbours to China that would make sense. So there you go: fake Chinese inverted coloured flecktarn ACUs being used "officially" by at least one countries military! What should we call it? "Kyrghzstan flecktarn"? Here's a pic from 2010.

    [left]

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    Re: Flecktarn-different color versions

    Post by Tophe on Tue May 01, 2012 6:02 pm

    On the right, the 2 trousers I found at Ciney Militaria April '12 :



    From left to right : 5 farb Kölher, 5 farb tropen Walher, 5 farb Spekon, 5 farb ???
    On Spekon trouser, I'm sure it's not by chance that there is nearly no black dots.
    And the last trouser is becoming... blue !!??
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    Re: Flecktarn-different color versions

    Post by CollectinSteve on Wed May 02, 2012 1:39 am

    Good side-by-side example of how different Flecktarn can be. Heh... the Spekon trousers are about as faded as I've ever seen! Funny to see how the black barely faded. Yes, fading to blue is something I have seen before, but I would say it is not common.

    The Flecktarn pattern does have large sections with few black dots. I think it is luck the trousers used those portions of the cloth. The opposite is true for the Köhler example in your picture.

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    Re: Flecktarn-different color versions

    Post by Flecktarn92 on Wed May 02, 2012 1:58 am

    German Flecktarn pants never cease to either fade, rip at the knees or fray at the bottoms. I haven't worn a pair in years mainly because I can never find large sizes so maybe they've fixed some of those problems.

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    Re: Flecktarn-different color versions

    Post by Harbard on Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:50 pm

    Hello and sorry for kicking up an old post! BUT i have a question regarding this anyway, so instead of making a new post about the same thing, I'll just ask here.

    Yesterday i bought a new Flecktarn Field jacket, However it doesn't say which year, but prop 92/95 i guess.

    I have a pair of 2009 flecktarn fieldtrousers as well, with the "new" 2005 flecktarn colors, I just need an confirmation that the flecktarn on the right is the old 1900-2005 flecktarn, for me it does look newer but the green is more like "blueish" green then the other flecktarn i have which is to me " normal field green and then grey "

    However i find this mix of variation to be serving me well in the field, the new flecktarn pants are lighter in color, then the jacket is a bit darker, at distance it all melt together in a weird way making it more random and harder to see. However the pants alone ( 2009 pants ) does blend in better here in southern Sweden then the old flecktarn jacket does alone, to bluish green i guess - but still it works very well anyway!

    Sorry for just rambling about stuff here.. I'm in a bit of hurry - Please, just confirm that the camo on right ( the jacket ) is indeed the old Flecktarn coloration and the camo to left ( 2009 field pants ) indeed is the currently issued or made camo Smile - also bonus picture from me.




    ( wow anyone please please tell me how to get the pic smaller o.O ? Just right click and select view image, for now
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    Re: Flecktarn-different color versions

    Post by CollectinSteve on Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:25 pm

    It's a good question and there's no good answer. The jackets are made from a completely different cloth and therefore tend to look a little different than the trousers. Especially after worn for a while. But because of manufacturing inconsistencies, some match better than others. Just look at the trousers Tophe posted above. I bet they are all 1990s production and therefore should be identical.

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    Re: Flecktarn-different color versions

    Post by Harbard on Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:04 pm

    CollectinSteve wrote:It's a good question and there's no good answer. The jackets are made from a completely different cloth and therefore tend to look a little different than the trousers. Especially after worn for a while. But because of manufacturing inconsistencies, some match better than others. Just look at the trousers Tophe posted above. I bet they are all 1990s production and therefore should be identical.

    Steve

    Okey thanks. Just found out that the new made Flecktarn indeed is Grey/Greenishgrey - Modern real Forest green - Leaf brown ( "Orange brown" ) - Olive green and black Smile



    The picture above is the new "2005" camo and is very much the same as the camo my pants have that i posted in my first post - the to left.

    My conclusion is that the older models has more variations than this new one has, maybe different way of making the field uniform today and applying the camo to it, but surely i haven't seen any high ranked army personnel wearing the old camo coloration but just the new camo coloration and a matching set of it also, making me to believe that the modern new uniform is made using more modern technology and really striving to follow the camo scheme ^^

    This of course is just my opinion and thoughts, but i have done some research of this to. I'm really looking forward to getting a new 2005-2012 field jacket but still no luck finding one.

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    Re: Flecktarn-different color versions

    Post by kammo-man on Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:17 pm

    Great thread !

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    Re: Flecktarn-different color versions

    Post by CollectinSteve on Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:31 pm

    Keep in mind that the 5 Farbe Troppentarn (for warm climates) uniform looks very different from the standard 5 Farbe Flecktarn. The colors of the 5 Farbe Troppentarn are "muted" compared to the standard type. The Oberleutnant's hat, in the above picture, looks to be from wear/washing.

    It's funny... I have more of 5 Farbe Flecktarn stuff than probably any other single pattern in my collection, but I can't tell one from the other Very Happy

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