San Marco and COMBUSIN camouflage

    Share
    avatar
    koalorka
    Lieutenant Colonel
    Lieutenant Colonel

    Location : Canada
    Registration date : 2010-05-22
    Number of posts : 1699

    Re: San Marco and COMBUSIN camouflage

    Post by koalorka on Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:27 am

    With regards to the BSM tops, is there some sort of distinction between 2-pocket and 4-pocket shirts?
    avatar
    marco747
    Corporal
    Corporal

    Name : Marco
    Age : 42
    Location : Rome, Italy
    Registration date : 2011-05-03
    Number of posts : 12

    Re: San Marco and COMBUSIN camouflage

    Post by marco747 on Tue May 03, 2011 11:27 am

    Hi guys, I just want to clarify a few things about the San Marco uniforms, AKA mediterranean pattern.

    I owe a company that sells wholesale military goods, also to the Italian Government, so I'm pretty sure of what I'm talking about.

    The First San marco mediterranean pattern is the yellowish coloured called friendly "ginestra" , because of its yellow pattern. There are no mountain, or desert variations of this camo, only shades variations due to different manufacturers contracts. Recently a new version has been made (around 5 years ago with different cut and shades, but it's issued to the same purposes as the previous ones, so no mountain or similar. You can distinguish it as it has a round patch velcro on the right shoulder, instead of the two shield shaped ones of the previous uniforms). Some were made in more elastic material, some printed on both sides, but again, only different runs of the same pattern.

    The ones really different, are the San Marco desert pattern, issued just to 32 operators for test purposes, never adopted, only around 50 uniforms were made of it. Here a pic of Vonstuck's uniform (by the way, I don't have it and am almost mad about it.)





    The other different one is the COMSUBIN mediterranean pattern, that has smaller shapes and darker colours and obviously a different cut.





    These two uniforms are the only ones different existing, in mediterranean pattern.

    Obviously I confirm also the pink one and the orange one, issued in limited number to Comsubin and Navy operators for desert areas, that has seen limited use.

    Now all italian Army, Navy and Air Force soldiers are gradually passing to the Vegetata uniforms (the Air force Raiders special forces used their own Vegetata pattern in two versions, desert and temperate, but as it's just around 120 operators, only 250 numbered uniforms were manufactured in each camo.)

    Other special forces adopted their own cut vegetata uniforms (as the 9° Col Moschin or the Alpini Paracadutisti), and some are now using the Vegecam, new camo mixing Vegatata shapes and Multicam colours, made by SOD. Each uniform is paid by the government 250 euros, and is very hard to get for collecting purposes (at least til now...)

    Hope I clarified some doubts for all our collecting friends, anyway, I'm here for any question...
    avatar
    koalorka
    Lieutenant Colonel
    Lieutenant Colonel

    Location : Canada
    Registration date : 2010-05-22
    Number of posts : 1699

    Re: San Marco and COMBUSIN camouflage

    Post by koalorka on Tue May 03, 2011 11:51 am

    Very good information Marco! I'm glad we're able to put the speculation to rest and even more happy I won't have to buy 10-20 different imagined variants of the San Marco camo! My wallet thanks you.
    avatar
    CollectinSteve
    ADMIN
    ADMIN

    Location : New England, US
    Registration date : 2009-03-08
    Number of posts : 5873

    Re: San Marco and COMBUSIN camouflage

    Post by CollectinSteve on Tue May 03, 2011 3:04 pm

    Very good information, thanks very much!

    I think most collectors understood the "Mountain", "Beach", etc. designations to represent the color variations, not that there were distinct uniforms intended for different purposes. The color differences are too small for that.

    And to think I didn't buy the rare desert version for $200 many years ago when I had the chance. Stupid me!

    Steve
    avatar
    vonstuck
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Location : FRANCE
    Registration date : 2010-03-30
    Number of posts : 2576

    Re: San Marco and COMBUSIN camouflage

    Post by vonstuck on Thu May 05, 2011 7:02 pm

    Hello Marco, hello everyone
    I start with this picture

    The drawing is the same for the 3 garments; just the colors change and the 3 variant have a name

    About this picture Somalia and mountain pattern
    It is just a “problem” with the colors? Really?


    The entire pattern for the Mediterranean


    For me this picture speak by itself, you can see variant in the drawing


    I have not invent the name of the different pattern, I have got from an Italian collector, and almost all that I have in San Marco, combusin is from him
    Thank you Vittorio!
    Gilles
    http://vonstuckcamouflage.free.fr/italy.php
    avatar
    CollectinSteve
    ADMIN
    ADMIN

    Location : New England, US
    Registration date : 2009-03-08
    Number of posts : 5873

    Re: San Marco and COMBUSIN camouflage

    Post by CollectinSteve on Thu May 05, 2011 7:59 pm

    Gilles,

    There are two possibilities:

    1. There are different patterns of BSM made for specific environments.

    2. There are different patterns of BSM resulting from different contracts.

    This is similar to the discussion about British Tropical uniforms from the 1980s. There is no such thing as "Belize" or "Hong Kong". They were different production runs and one happen to go to Belize and the other went to Hong Kong. Or people just said this because the bright one is better for the jungle and the darker one for mainland China.

    To summarize...

    There are absolutely different BSM patterns. Not just colors but also the actual patterns and the materials used. I've also noticed some very small production differences with the arm pocket. But I do not believe these were intended for different environments. I think they were just variations from contract to contract.

    Steve
    avatar
    drmatz
    MODERATOR
    MODERATOR

    Name : danilo matz
    Age : 40
    Location : USA
    Registration date : 2009-02-16
    Number of posts : 2069

    Re: San Marco and COMBUSIN camouflage

    Post by drmatz on Thu May 05, 2011 11:50 pm

    here i also have a couple of BSM in very different color variations...
    for me they also seemed like a different pattern, The top uniform i thought it was a comsubin, the second i called it "navy"
    also the "pink" bsm and the vegecam



















    _________________
    dmatz


    http://picasaweb.google.com/danilomatz
    avatar
    drmatz
    MODERATOR
    MODERATOR

    Name : danilo matz
    Age : 40
    Location : USA
    Registration date : 2009-02-16
    Number of posts : 2069

    Re: San Marco and COMBUSIN camouflage

    Post by drmatz on Thu May 05, 2011 11:53 pm

    forgot to add i think the BSM is a lot like portuguese uniforms, if very hard to match sets from different, ages, manufactures and models, after you look close, none of them match.
    avatar
    CollectinSteve
    ADMIN
    ADMIN

    Location : New England, US
    Registration date : 2009-03-08
    Number of posts : 5873

    Re: San Marco and COMBUSIN camouflage

    Post by CollectinSteve on Fri May 06, 2011 12:46 am

    There is also a variant that has absolutely no "spray" on the sides of the shapes. It's just solid colors. Looks really ugly, IMHO.

    Steve
    avatar
    marco747
    Corporal
    Corporal

    Name : Marco
    Age : 42
    Location : Rome, Italy
    Registration date : 2011-05-03
    Number of posts : 12

    Re: San Marco and COMBUSIN camouflage

    Post by marco747 on Fri May 06, 2011 1:12 pm

    Guys, I don't want to discuss about other collections, you can believe whatever you like and call your uniforms with thousand different names, whaat I say is just that the difference between some versions of BSM mediterranean camo (and this includes shapes and shades) come just from different runs of different factories in different ages. Remember that BSM camo was used since a long time, and many contracts have been made with different manufacturers. That's it...
    Danilo, sorry to tell you that the first pic of your uniforms in BSM camo is a commercial version, sometimes bought privately by italian soldiers, you recognize it by the drawstring in the lower part of the jacket, that has never been used on issue uniforms...
    The second is issue BSM pattern, the 3rd is the so called frequently "Pantera rosa" (pink panther) that have seen limited use by COMSUBIN, and the 4th seems legitimate to me any tags inside?
    avatar
    koalorka
    Lieutenant Colonel
    Lieutenant Colonel

    Location : Canada
    Registration date : 2010-05-22
    Number of posts : 1699

    Re: San Marco and COMBUSIN camouflage

    Post by koalorka on Fri May 06, 2011 2:15 pm

    marco747 wrote:Guys, I don't want to discuss about other collections, you can believe whatever you like and call your uniforms with thousand different names, whaat I say is just that the difference between some versions of BSM mediterranean camo (and this includes shapes and shades) come just from different runs of different factories in different ages. Remember that BSM camo was used since a long time, and many contracts have been made with different manufacturers. That's it...

    And I believe that. Such an extended production period and the variety of contractors using different textiles and production techniques would ensure a great number of variations in print.
    avatar
    CollectinSteve
    ADMIN
    ADMIN

    Location : New England, US
    Registration date : 2009-03-08
    Number of posts : 5873

    Re: San Marco and COMBUSIN camouflage

    Post by CollectinSteve on Fri May 06, 2011 3:45 pm

    marco747 wrote:Guys, I don't want to discuss about other collections, you can believe whatever you like and call your uniforms with thousand different names, whaat I say is just that the difference between some versions of BSM mediterranean camo (and this includes shapes and shades) come just from different runs of different factories in different ages. Remember that BSM camo was used since a long time, and many contracts have been made with different manufacturers. That's it...

    I definitely agree. I think it is very useful to have names for the different variations for collection purposes, especially because the tags are often missing or unreadable (i.e. dating is difficult), but I don't think each was made for a specific purpose.

    One question... many older BSM uniforms (m29 type) have a distinct blue/green color to them that I've never seen on an Army uniform. But they also had uniforms that had similar colors to the Army type uniform. Was this also manufacturing differences, or at some point did the Navy specifically ask for a color change?

    Danilo, sorry to tell you that the first pic of your uniforms in BSM camo is a commercial version, sometimes bought privately by italian soldiers, you recognize it by the drawstring in the lower part of the jacket, that has never been used on issue uniforms...

    The pocket flaps are also pointed, so I think this is another good thing to look for?

    Steve
    avatar
    vonstuck
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Location : FRANCE
    Registration date : 2010-03-30
    Number of posts : 2576

    Re: San Marco and COMBUSIN camouflage

    Post by vonstuck on Fri May 06, 2011 6:13 pm

    Hello
    It is the nature of man to name things
    I shall like it existing names for the different DPM drawing
    http://iacmc.forumotion.com/t4025-i-have-4-differents-dpm-drawing-pattern
    Gilles
    avatar
    marco747
    Corporal
    Corporal

    Name : Marco
    Age : 42
    Location : Rome, Italy
    Registration date : 2011-05-03
    Number of posts : 12

    Re: San Marco and COMBUSIN camouflage

    Post by marco747 on Sat May 07, 2011 1:01 pm

    One question... many older BSM uniforms (m29 type) have a distinct blue/green color to them that I've never seen on an Army uniform. But they also had uniforms that had similar colors to the Army type uniform. Was this also manufacturing differences, or at some point did the Navy specifically ask for a color change?

    Yes, the M1929 Navy versions were really different and made with other colours, there were two shade variations, one with the light blue and sand colour for troops boarded on ships, the other much greener, for ground staff...







    Last edited by CollectinSteve on Sat May 07, 2011 1:09 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Fixed quote)
    avatar
    Bury_Dave
    Senior Lieutenant
    Senior Lieutenant

    Name : Dave
    Age : 53
    Location : Cambridge , UK
    Registration date : 2012-02-14
    Number of posts : 822

    Re: San Marco and COMBUSIN camouflage

    Post by Bury_Dave on Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:18 pm

    drmatz wrote:




    I love this jacket !! Very Happy This is a dangerous forum to hang out in for an ex collector ! Smile
    avatar
    sgtfcm
    Corporal
    Corporal

    Location : North Italy
    Registration date : 2012-05-23
    Number of posts : 71

    Re: San Marco and COMBUSIN camouflage

    Post by sgtfcm on Wed May 23, 2012 1:28 pm

    marco747 wrote:Hi guys, I just want to clarify a few things about the San Marco uniforms, AKA mediterranean pattern.

    I owe a company that sells wholesale military goods, also to the Italian Government, so I'm pretty sure of what I'm talking about.

    The First San marco mediterranean pattern is the yellowish coloured called friendly "ginestra" , because of its yellow pattern. There are no mountain, or desert variations of this camo, only shades variations due to different manufacturers contracts. Recently a new version has been made (around 5 years ago with different cut and shades, but it's issued to the same purposes as the previous ones, so no mountain or similar. You can distinguish it as it has a round patch velcro on the right shoulder, instead of the two shield shaped ones of the previous uniforms). Some were made in more elastic material, some printed on both sides, but again, only different runs of the same pattern.

    The ones really different, are the San Marco desert pattern, issued just to 32 operators for test purposes, never adopted, only around 50 uniforms were made of it. Here a pic of Vonstuck's uniform (by the way, I don't have it and am almost mad about it.)





    The other different one is the COMSUBIN mediterranean pattern, that has smaller shapes and darker colours and obviously a different cut.





    These two uniforms are the only ones different existing, in mediterranean pattern.

    Obviously I confirm also the pink one and the orange one, issued in limited number to Comsubin and Navy operators for desert areas, that has seen limited use.

    Now all italian Army, Navy and Air Force soldiers are gradually passing to the Vegetata uniforms (the Air force Raiders special forces used their own Vegetata pattern in two versions, desert and temperate, but as it's just around 120 operators, only 250 numbered uniforms were manufactured in each camo.)

    Other special forces adopted their own cut vegetata uniforms (as the 9° Col Moschin or the Alpini Paracadutisti), and some are now using the Vegecam, new camo mixing Vegatata shapes and Multicam colours, made by SOD. Each uniform is paid by the government 250 euros, and is very hard to get for collecting purposes (at least til now...)

    Hope I clarified some doubts for all our collecting friends, anyway, I'm here for any question...


    I have to quote Marco on everything.

    I would also like to add few remarks:

    1) what we usually call BSM pattern or BSM camo was actually adopted earlier by Comsubin and few months later by BSM. I remember we got the first distribution of the new camo uniforms at the beginning of 1991 and only restricted to our "operational group". All the others kept wearing the camo coverall (not posted yet here).
    The first lot of uniforms were elasticized and tended to fade quick quickly and also rip. Actually I think the camo pattern was even more effective once faded. The second lot was not elasticized and a little bit darker. I don't have the first lot but I have the second one, because I brought it home once I discharged from BSM. Since then, I collected a couple of different shades of pattern but basically I think it was all a matter of different lots. It was the same even before, for the coveralls: I can remember at least 3 o 4 different shades of the same pattern and they were distributed randomly to us !
    2) one of the old pattern camo jackets posted is not for BSM (although we were the very same type) because the shoulder straps are for SDI (Military Base Guards Service).
    3) Someone referred to a yellow pattern desert camo, I believe he possibly refers to Somalia pattern? If so, I can post a specimen
    4) I lost count of all the variations of BSM patterns and cut because some special uniforms were made for Comsubin as well. I am still on the look for a type which has a low collar and zips instead of buttons!
    5) I owned a set of the so called desert BSM camo. I got it from the person who manufactured them for the BSM back in the early 90's. I paid it ALOT already back then but I was not convinced of the story coming with it. Later on, talking to my buddies,it was confirmed that it was tested for a very short period by a company and shortly afterwards discarded. I sold it many years ago (chances are that is one of those in your collections). During that period that company manufactured different shades of the BSM pattern and there were people trying to sell it as "mountain", "Carabinieri" , etc, etc. I never believed that story.
    avatar
    vonstuck
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Location : FRANCE
    Registration date : 2010-03-30
    Number of posts : 2576

    Re: San Marco and COMBUSIN camouflage

    Post by vonstuck on Wed May 23, 2012 3:29 pm

    COMBUSIN


















    The textil is print on the two faces for the 2 jackets

    avatar
    sgtfcm
    Corporal
    Corporal

    Location : North Italy
    Registration date : 2012-05-23
    Number of posts : 71

    Re: San Marco and COMBUSIN camouflage

    Post by sgtfcm on Wed May 23, 2012 3:32 pm

    Nice piece Vonstuck!

    avatar
    Crna Strela
    Corporal
    Corporal

    Location : Italy
    Registration date : 2010-05-19
    Number of posts : 69

    Re: San Marco and COMBUSIN camouflage

    Post by Crna Strela on Wed May 23, 2012 3:35 pm

    Hello Gilles,

    I don't think that these two jackets belong to Comsubin.
    The first you posted, as you wrote in the past, is the model produced in 2003 (more or less) and it was used only by San Marco Battalion. In that period Comsubin had already its uniform made by FCM, the one with "korean collar" and zip closures on chest pockets.
    The other one with only 2 oblique chest pockets is the latest model, made since 2008, which can be found in two different patterns, one is like yours (almost identical to the previous one) and the second is a "dense variation", with more black spots and even a different brown color.

    These are the two fabrics for the 2008 model:

    avatar
    vonstuck
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Location : FRANCE
    Registration date : 2010-03-30
    Number of posts : 2576

    Re: San Marco and COMBUSIN camouflage

    Post by vonstuck on Thu May 24, 2012 2:33 am

    Hello
    If I have understand, the 2 shirts are an evolution of the San Marco garment
    It is that?
    Gilles
    avatar
    vonstuck
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Location : FRANCE
    Registration date : 2010-03-30
    Number of posts : 2576

    Re: San Marco and COMBUSIN camouflage

    Post by vonstuck on Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:20 pm







    It seem tailored
    The textile is print on the 2 faces with 2 different pattern
    Gilles
    avatar
    ripcord
    Lieutenant Colonel
    Lieutenant Colonel

    Location : USA
    Registration date : 2012-12-29
    Number of posts : 1709

    Re: San Marco and COMBUSIN camouflage

    Post by ripcord on Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:42 pm

    Very cool trousers.

    Seems that they are cut similarly to some of the M29  SM trousers design.

    Very strange that they have two distinctly different patterns.
    avatar
    jimmyduncan23
    Major
    Major

    Registration date : 2011-07-29
    Number of posts : 1161

    Re: San Marco and COMBUSIN camouflage

    Post by jimmyduncan23 on Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:07 pm

    Only have the shirt,


    avatar
    ripcord
    Lieutenant Colonel
    Lieutenant Colonel

    Location : USA
    Registration date : 2012-12-29
    Number of posts : 1709

    Re: San Marco and COMBUSIN camouflage

    Post by ripcord on Sun Jul 14, 2013 8:38 pm

    Very nice, JD23

    Now I'm really envious.....Crying or Very sad 

    moretz

    Location : Italy
    Registration date : 2012-01-01
    Number of posts : 3

    Re: San Marco and COMBUSIN camouflage

    Post by moretz on Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:47 pm

    A pair of mine San Marco - comsubin camo sets.

    On the right a San Marco Recon set.
    Made from the same company that have done the "pink" comsubin set in some post before.



    A comsubin 4 colours prototype jacket, Made from the same previous company.



    A comsubin desert camo set and another jacket. In italy we call it "peach" camo.




    Sponsored content

    Re: San Marco and COMBUSIN camouflage

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:14 am