Suspicious helmet cover

    Share

    jose ramon
    Junior Sergeant
    Junior Sergeant

    Location : Spain
    Registration date : 2010-08-27
    Number of posts : 120

    Suspicious helmet cover

    Post by jose ramon on Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:24 pm



    Suspicious cover.
    I just take two of theese M1 helmet cover. According to markings, USA made from 1983. The inner is a plain tan color. It is in pristine condition.
    The camouflage pattern is simmilar to woodland, but not the same.
    I have some suspicions, but at least, it was a gift.
    ¿is autentic?
    Thanks in advance!
    JR

    Mk1rceme
    Senior Sergeant
    Senior Sergeant

    Name : Dale
    Age : 45
    Location : Alberta Canada
    Registration date : 2009-11-22
    Number of posts : 333

    Re: Suspicious helmet cover

    Post by Mk1rceme on Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:30 pm

    That is a strange one for sure!?!

    Flecktarn92
    Officer Candidate
    Officer Candidate

    Name : Oliver
    Location : New York, USA
    Registration date : 2009-07-15
    Number of posts : 500

    Re: Suspicious helmet cover

    Post by Flecktarn92 on Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:05 pm

    looks more like the French CE pattern. That is very strange

    CollectinSteve
    ADMIN
    ADMIN

    Location : New England, US
    Registration date : 2009-03-08
    Number of posts : 5567

    Re: Suspicious helmet cover

    Post by CollectinSteve on Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:21 pm

    Well, it was made by blind volunteers Very Happy OK, that was an obvious and stupid joke to make. But someone had to do it!

    The organization is real:

    http://volblind.org/

    I've seen things made by them before, so it was not a surprise to me to see these markings.

    The DLA number also looks correct. I found at least one reference to it on the Web:

    http://world-war-helmets.com/fiches/Marquages-couvre-casques-US-M-1.php

    Notice there are many covers made by this company over a very long period of time.

    I say it is legitimate, but I don't know what for!

    Steve

    Philip
    ADMIN MODERATOR
    ADMIN MODERATOR

    Age : 29
    Location : Austria
    Registration date : 2009-02-17
    Number of posts : 3018

    Re: Suspicious helmet cover

    Post by Philip on Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:28 am

    Maybe Steve is right but I've got a strange feeling about it.
    Surely it's not US. Maybe a foreign contract? But why US stock and contract number?


    _________________
    http://philipscamocollection.npage.at/

    CollectinSteve
    ADMIN
    ADMIN

    Location : New England, US
    Registration date : 2009-03-08
    Number of posts : 5567

    Re: Suspicious helmet cover

    Post by CollectinSteve on Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:19 pm

    I am not all that comfortable with this either, butcertainly the information of that stamp is 100% correct:

    http://www.dlis.dla.mil/webflis/pub/pub_search.aspx

    https://www.dlis.dla.mil/bincs/details.aspx?CAGE=83421

    The only things wrong with this cover is the cloth appears (can't tell for sure) to be different and the camouflage pattern certainly isn't Woodland. Possibilities:

    1. DoD experimented with a different pattern for helmets. Although it is usual for the uniform pattern to be used for the helmet cover, this isn't always the case. It is possible they experimented with a more effective camo pattern for the helmet portion of the body. This particular contract was only produced by 2 companies.

    2. This is a fantasy piece with a direct copy of a legitimate stamp which, conveniently, was part of a contract which a large number of companies participated in. Meaning, if they chose a number that had a large number of companies participating we should see these things all over the place.

    At present I'm prepared to say it's legit. Apparently this was purchased by the Navy, Air Force, Army, and Coast Guard.

    Steve

    Philip
    ADMIN MODERATOR
    ADMIN MODERATOR

    Age : 29
    Location : Austria
    Registration date : 2009-02-17
    Number of posts : 3018

    Re: Suspicious helmet cover

    Post by Philip on Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:39 pm

    CollectinSteve wrote:
    2. This is a fantasy piece with a direct copy of a legitimate stamp which, conveniently, was part of a contract which a large number of companies participated in. Meaning, if they chose a number that had a large number of companies participating we should see these things all over the place.
    I think this is the case here. I saw some MARPAT boonies by Helikon which look EXACTLY like the real deal except label says Helikon and not Sekri.


    Last edited by Philip on Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:06 pm; edited 1 time in total


    _________________
    http://philipscamocollection.npage.at/

    jose ramon
    Junior Sergeant
    Junior Sergeant

    Location : Spain
    Registration date : 2010-08-27
    Number of posts : 120

    Re: Suspicious helmet cover

    Post by jose ramon on Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:21 pm

    Sad
    Thats my concern...

    CollectinSteve
    ADMIN
    ADMIN

    Location : New England, US
    Registration date : 2009-03-08
    Number of posts : 5567

    Re: Suspicious helmet cover

    Post by CollectinSteve on Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:06 am

    When I see faked stamps or tags there is usually something obviously wrong about them. For example, a date that is 10 years before the pattern was even thought of, incorrect lettering, missing information, etc. This is not true here. Even more curious is they picked a near perfect stamp to copy. If they had picked a more common cover they might have a contract number that was made by dozens of companies, not two (one is out of business). This would be a huge red flag.

    So I don't know what to make of this. My experience with fakes is they do very poor research, so if this is a fake then they must have got lucky.

    Steve

    Easy Gee
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Name : Gary
    Age : 47
    Location : UK
    Registration date : 2010-06-12
    Number of posts : 3591

    Re: Suspicious helmet cover

    Post by Easy Gee on Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:50 pm

    I have a couple of these covers in my collection,I agree they are very strange ,the material is not the usual woodland material,and the reverse is not grey as you would expect on a standard Woodland M1 cover...I have done a "Lot" of research on these very covers,and I've yet to prove one way or the other ,that these covers are genuine US issue......the covers I have, came from the UK through different sources....but here's the interesting bit...the covers I purchased came on M1 Euro clone lids e.g Norwegian and Belgian lids.....If anyone knows conclusively of these covers identity ,I would be very interested,I will watch this post with interest.....thanks Jose for posting this query,any luck we will both get the answers we need !!

    As stated The camo is very similar to French CE,but to my knowledge was not ever supplied to the French forces,as they were wearing F1's around this period,and stopped using the M1 in the 50's,the mystery continues.............. Wink

    jose ramon
    Junior Sergeant
    Junior Sergeant

    Location : Spain
    Registration date : 2010-08-27
    Number of posts : 120

    Re: Suspicious helmet cover

    Post by jose ramon on Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:40 pm

    Every thing said is very interesting. I add another information. The helmet covers was a gift when I bought a helmet. The shop (Costa del Sol, Malaga, south of Spain) is intended for WWII reenactors, not for collectors, so no cheating, also, very low prices, so I am very happy with the purchase.
    The point is that the helmet has a insignia erased, could be belgian, but the shape is not the same of belgian clones, more US likeness. There is a marking inside "ABL 1955"


    Easy Gee
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Name : Gary
    Age : 47
    Location : UK
    Registration date : 2010-06-12
    Number of posts : 3591

    Re: Suspicious helmet cover

    Post by Easy Gee on Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:29 am

    jose ramon wrote:Every thing said is very interesting. I add another information. The helmet covers was a gift when I bought a helmet. The shop (Costa del Sol, Malaga, south of Spain) is intended for WWII reenactors, not for collectors, so no cheating, also, very low prices, so I am very happy with the purchase.
    The point is that the helmet has a insignia erased, could be belgian, but the shape is not the same of belgian clones, more US likeness. There is a marking inside "ABL 1955"




    Hi Jose,

    Your lid is definitely Belgian,the ABL equates to Armee Belge Leger,and was made in 1955,the shell is an M51 OTAN ( NATO ).....the strange thing is I have read in a book, that the Belgians used Camo nets,Belgian jigsaw camo,and US woodland covers,but I have no pictorial evidence......any Belgians out there who can provide proof( pictures).

    Hope this helps Mate Wink

    jose ramon
    Junior Sergeant
    Junior Sergeant

    Location : Spain
    Registration date : 2010-08-27
    Number of posts : 120

    Re: Suspicious helmet cover

    Post by jose ramon on Sun Oct 03, 2010 4:28 pm




    Here is a comparative photo of the different shapes in my danish and belgian M1.
    The belgian one looks like more to the USA helmet.
    Can some one tell me the differences, betwen the belgian and the legitime US helmet?
    I was comparing my belgian, spanish and US army M1s, and looks like the same thing to me.
    JR

    Philip
    ADMIN MODERATOR
    ADMIN MODERATOR

    Age : 29
    Location : Austria
    Registration date : 2009-02-17
    Number of posts : 3018

    Re: Suspicious helmet cover

    Post by Philip on Sun Oct 03, 2010 5:48 pm

    Same cover on eBay:
    http://cgi.ebay.de/US-HELMBEZUG-M-1-HELM-/390164559752?pt=NATO_Shop&hash=item5ad79eb788


    _________________
    http://philipscamocollection.npage.at/

    jose ramon
    Junior Sergeant
    Junior Sergeant

    Location : Spain
    Registration date : 2010-08-27
    Number of posts : 120

    Re: Suspicious helmet cover

    Post by jose ramon on Sun Oct 03, 2010 5:50 pm

    Philip wrote:Same cover on eBay:
    http://cgi.ebay.de/US-HELMBEZUG-M-1-HELM-/390164559752?pt=NATO_Shop&hash=item5ad79eb788
    The same thing!

    CollectinSteve
    ADMIN
    ADMIN

    Location : New England, US
    Registration date : 2009-03-08
    Number of posts : 5567

    Re: Suspicious helmet cover

    Post by CollectinSteve on Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:04 am

    Definitely a good mystery that needs solving Very Happy

    I have never seen, or heard, of the Belgians using this type of helmet cover. I don't think they would. Generally they did not use helmet covers, only nets or nothing. There are a few rare exceptions, but those were in Belgian patterns. I do not doubt they also used US Woodland covers from time to time, especially in the Para/Commandos who were allowed more freedom to choose what they wore. I sent a couple hundred US Woodland uniforms for them to wear for base duty so they could save their Jigsaw uniforms from being beat up.

    Correct that this type of cover could not be used on the F1 French helmet because it is a one piece type, not two piece type required for this type of cover.

    Steve

    Easy Gee
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Name : Gary
    Age : 47
    Location : UK
    Registration date : 2010-06-12
    Number of posts : 3591

    Re: Suspicious helmet cover

    Post by Easy Gee on Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:54 pm

    Hi Jose.

    The only way to tell a US M1 from a Euro clone M1, is quite easy...all US lids,right from WW2 models up to the last built in the 70's are stamped in the inside of the shell, just inside the peak more or less, the stamp is a Heat stamp and will be for examples 127A for a WW2 model,M136 A for a Korean issue model,and 735 for Vietnam and later models.

    The Belgian M51,will have no stamp,only a printed marking like your's, will be rear seam, and generally a stainless steel rim,US models of this era ( 50's) would not have a stainless steel rim....Danish M48 will be stamped on the inside rear of rim,with letters/numbers......Basically 90% of all Euro clone M1's ,were made in Austria,and sold to the Danes ,Norway,etc....interestingly the Spanish M1 was purchased by Spain directly from the US...so if you want a genuine US M1,your in the right time and place...hope this help's...feel free to ask more questions if you want to... Wink

    jose ramon
    Junior Sergeant
    Junior Sergeant

    Location : Spain
    Registration date : 2010-08-27
    Number of posts : 120

    Re: Suspicious helmet cover

    Post by jose ramon on Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:52 pm

    Easy Gee wrote:Hi Jose.

    The only way to tell a US M1 from a Euro clone M1, is quite easy...all US lids,right from WW2 models up to the last built in the 70's are stamped in the inside of the shell, just inside the peak more or less, the stamp is a Heat stamp and will be for examples 127A for a WW2 model,M136 A for a Korean issue model,and 735 for Vietnam and later models.

    The Belgian M51,will have no stamp,only a printed marking like your's, will be rear seam, and generally a stainless steel rim,US models of this era ( 50's) would not have a stainless steel rim....Danish M48 will be stamped on the inside rear of rim,with letters/numbers......Basically 90% of all Euro clone M1's ,were made in Austria,and sold to the Danes ,Norway,etc....interestingly the Spanish M1 was purchased by Spain directly from the US...so if you want a genuine US M1,your in the right time and place...hope this help's...feel free to ask more questions if you want to... Wink


    Thanks! I am going to search for the marks! The three blue-grey helmets are spanish M1, you can see the differents straps.
    JR

    jose ramon
    Junior Sergeant
    Junior Sergeant

    Location : Spain
    Registration date : 2010-08-27
    Number of posts : 120

    Re: Suspicious helmet cover

    Post by jose ramon on Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:29 pm

    Can I see a pic of the markings I need to search?
    JR

    Easy Gee
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Name : Gary
    Age : 47
    Location : UK
    Registration date : 2010-06-12
    Number of posts : 3591

    Re: Suspicious helmet cover

    Post by Easy Gee on Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:37 pm

    jose ramon wrote:Can I see a pic of the markings I need to search?
    JR



    Yeah ,no worries mate,when I get a little more time I will take pic's of my M1 lids( WW2, Korean,Vietnam and 80's heat stamps),and try to show where they will be located.....watch this space soon Wink

    jose ramon
    Junior Sergeant
    Junior Sergeant

    Location : Spain
    Registration date : 2010-08-27
    Number of posts : 120

    Re: Suspicious helmet cover

    Post by jose ramon on Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:59 pm

    Easy Gee wrote:
    jose ramon wrote:Can I see a pic of the markings I need to search?
    JR



    Yeah ,no worries mate,when I get a little more time I will take pic's of my M1 lids( WW2, Korean,Vietnam and 80's heat stamps),and try to show where they will be located.....watch this space soon Wink

    Thanks Smile

    casper_platoon
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Name : Mateusz/Mathew
    Age : 33
    Location : Poland
    Registration date : 2010-07-03
    Number of posts : 253

    Re: Suspicious helmet cover

    Post by casper_platoon on Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:00 pm

    Did it came with the helmet?Maybe they are for OPFOR for example, but I also saw fake/repro covers made by helikon or mil-tec and they also had the proper NSN and other numbers,

    jose ramon
    Junior Sergeant
    Junior Sergeant

    Location : Spain
    Registration date : 2010-08-27
    Number of posts : 120

    Re: Suspicious helmet cover

    Post by jose ramon on Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:32 pm

    The covers came with the helmet as a gift from the vendor. It was not attached to the helmet. Was something like:
    -Are you going to buy the helmet?
    - Very Happy Yes
    -(rummaging in a drawer)Take this cover, a rubberband with cat eyes and a replacement sweat band, Do you want another?
    - Very Happy Of course!
    -Take another cover.
    - Very Happy Thank you very much! You will see me here very often!
    -Thats the point...

    Easy Gee
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Name : Gary
    Age : 47
    Location : UK
    Registration date : 2010-06-12
    Number of posts : 3591

    Re: Suspicious helmet cover

    Post by Easy Gee on Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:03 pm

    HiJose as promised heat stamps on M1 helmet.

    This particular heat stamp.shows a set of numbers 538A and underneath an S ( S=Schluuter) this lid dates from 1944.

    Guest
    Guest

    Re: Suspicious helmet cover

    Post by Guest on Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:16 pm

    is it likely the m1 camo cover is the canadian version of the woodland pattern hence the us ink stamp ?

    Sponsored content

    Re: Suspicious helmet cover

    Post by Sponsored content Today at 9:11 am


      Current date/time is Sun Dec 04, 2016 9:11 am