Unknown - portuguese? Uniform

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    drmatz
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    Unknown - portuguese? Uniform

    Post by drmatz on Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:14 pm

    Hi Guys, i am trying to properly ID this uniform, i got it as Portuguese Air force pattern, but not sure what it is, this is very similar to portuguese M63 pattern pat they are actually different.

    any info would be greatly appreciated.

    Also couldn't find a "unknown" section so sorry if i am posting this in the wrong section
    The 2 last photos are the regular portuguese pattern for comparison

    thank you very much




















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    Re: Unknown - portuguese? Uniform

    Post by Philip on Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:24 pm

    Weird... just one shoulder reinforcement.


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    drmatz
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    Re: Unknown - portuguese? Uniform

    Post by drmatz on Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:38 pm

    they probably don't allow lefties on their army Very Happy hahaahah - or maybe is an extremely right wing country... just kidding, but actually i haven't noticed that. good point

    cheers

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    Re: Unknown - portuguese? Uniform

    Post by CollectinSteve on Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:53 pm

    I don't know what it is, but commercial "hunter" jacket is a possibility. I've had a couple of Portuguese type camouflage items that were definitely commercial. However, they were not at all cut like issue items or made on HBT cloth, so it very well might be military issue of some sort.

    Steve

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    Re: Unknown - portuguese? Uniform

    Post by drmatz on Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:54 pm

    Hi Steve, yes i was also suggested to be a commercial pattern, but my feeling is that is really an issued item.
    here is another pic of both pattern together for better comparison

    cheers



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    Re: Unknown - portuguese? Uniform

    Post by nkomo on Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:14 pm

    Are there any tags or manufacturer marks?


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    Re: Unknown - portuguese? Uniform

    Post by filupe on Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:31 pm

    I know the South Africans made copy Portuguese camouflage for cross border operations - could this be one of those?? Usually they were unmarked except for a simple S-M-L size tag.

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    Re: Unknown - portuguese? Uniform

    Post by CollectinSteve on Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:37 pm

    Oooo.... Recce copy... hmmm... I'll see if I can direct a SA collector to comment.

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    Re: Unknown - portuguese? Uniform

    Post by 1stDivVet on Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:33 am

    coloring looks like the 2 SA jackets I have, but the cut is different. Print looks the same too.. It's like Portugese, but.... Things like minor differences in pattern and color as well as the green looks sideways compared to the reddish brown..

    Fins...


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    Re: Unknown - portuguese? Uniform

    Post by drmatz on Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:34 am

    Hi guys,

    i was suggested before about being a recce copy, i actually would love that to be true... but im not so sure, maybe Mike can give us some insight about it.
    There were no tags at all, just the number "104" printed inside the shirt around the neck area. Also there was a "portugal" patch inside one of the pockets.

    thanks for all your help and i hope we can ID this pattern

    cheers


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    Re: Unknown - portuguese? Uniform

    Post by vonstuck on Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:09 pm

    The SA RECCE copy




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    Re: Unknown - portuguese? Uniform

    Post by drmatz on Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:01 pm

    thanks for the photo gilles,

    i placed them next to each other in Photoshop and was able to compare them side by side, there are some similarities, but they are 2 different patterns, one was obviously inspired by the other. I'm thinking they might be of african origin after all...



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    Re: Unknown - portuguese? Uniform

    Post by mcoleman762 on Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:37 pm

    Hi Danilo,

    I can definately say that is not a Recce copy. Keep in mind, the Portuguese have used several different variants of lizard camo through the years, and I believe some branches continued to use it well into the 90's. So, this could very well be legit.

    If not genuine Portuguese, the next best guess would be Mozambique. They have used a bewildering amount of lizard camo since the 70's, and still use it today. Much of it has been actual Portuguese contract, however they have used a fair share of local and Chinese production as well. Like many African countries, there is little standardization, and dye lots, patterns, and uniform cuts change frequently.

    I'll do some more searching around in my photo archive to see what I can come up with.

    Cheers,

    Mike

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    Re: Unknown - portuguese? Uniform

    Post by drmatz on Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:42 pm

    Hi Mike,

    thanks for your expertise as usual.

    yes i agree with you, recce copy was a very long shot for me... This is probably a portuguese pattern after all, maybe the guy who got me (with a bunch of other portuguese stuff) was right when he said the shirt was portuguese AF and if this isn't portuguese the mozambique would be the probable next guess.

    thanks to everybody for your help

    best

    danilo

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    Re: Unknown - portuguese? Uniform

    Post by CollectinSteve on Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:01 pm

    Cool, thanks Gilles and Mike!

    Come to think of it, I have a hat in a similar pattern to this (somewhere!). Definitely cheaply produced in China. I'll see if I still have it.

    Steve

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    Re: Unknown - portuguese? Uniform

    Post by jim on Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:20 pm

    I concur with Mike. I have a similar Mozambican set with the same cheap Chinese buttons and cut less the detail with ref to the shoulder. The FAM or "Freds" as the Mozambican Army was known (Armed Wing of FRELIMO - Mozambique Liberation Front) did not have a formal Log support or procurement system and everything was ad hoc including uniforms. I will also dig it out and take a phot when I get the chance.

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    Re: Unknown - portuguese? Uniform

    Post by panzerwerk on Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:25 pm

    Very Interesting thread guys thanks for the info , so mine is a SA RECCE copy as well !



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    Re: Unknown - portuguese? Uniform

    Post by mcoleman762 on Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:10 pm

    Hi Steve,

    What you have there is a standard Portuguese pattern 63 shirt. The Recce copies have a boxed hem, not the "tuck in" fitted type of the genuine Portuguese shirts. The pattern detail is also more fine with the issue Port stuff, while the Recce copies have less defined brushstrokes.

    As an aside, the Recce Portuguese copies are probably the most common of the SA copy patterns. Jeff Fannell had several sets still available until about two years ago, when he finally sold out. They were all small sizes, so nobody wanted them and they sat in his stock for years. They were only around $80 a set. Pieces do pop up on eBay from time to time, and they usually sell relatively cheaply. Most still have the copy tags in them as well.

    I'd forgot about this thread, so I still need to hunt down a photo of the Portuguese lizard pattern in recent use. I know I have one stored in the depths of my computer somewhere.....

    Cheers,

    Mike

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    Re: Unknown - portuguese? Uniform

    Post by panzerwerk on Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:28 pm

    Awesome , so I had it right to begin with , I am not up on African uniforms , Thanks !!!

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    Re: Unknown - portuguese? Uniform

    Post by mcoleman762 on Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:48 am

    OK, finally found a couple of photos.

    These first two are of Portugues Marines, both dated from the 2006-2007 timeframe. From what I've been able to find out, the Marines are the only branch of service to still use the lizard pattern.

    [url=]url]

    [url=]url]

    And here are a couple shots of Mozambique troops. The first is from 2004, and the second is a group of Marines from 2005. You'll note in the second photo you can see two different versions of lizard camo, and different cuts of uniform. So, imagine this type of lack of standardization over the last 40 years, and you'll get an idea of how many variants are out there.

    [url=[url]

    [url=][/url]

    Now Danilo, getting back to your jacket. It could very well be an actual Portuguese issue piece. It's very possible that the Air Force could have used this pattern at some point. The fact that the jacket had a Portugal tab in one of the pockets should be a clue. Very Happy Now, usually Portuguese uniforms have OGFE contract tags in them, but it could have been removed. I wish I had the definitive answer, but this is the best I can come up with.

    Cheers,

    Mike

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    Re: Unknown - portuguese? Uniform

    Post by CollectinSteve on Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:19 am

    Cool pics Mike! I especially like the shot of the French style 47/56 jacket in the first picture with what appears to be Chinese made "Northern Alliance" camo. And in the second pic that looks like a more or less traditional Portuguese para jacket in the more yellow based variant the Portuguese used for a while.

    Danilo, I have pictures of a jacket very similar to yours. The primary difference is the pocket flaps are straight and not pointed. There is a OGFE tag and velcro backing over the right breast pocket. A collector had this for sale on eBay a while ago IIRC, or it came from a member here. I don't remember 100%. There is a "Mocambique" arc over the left arm. I don't know of that helps or not.

    Steve

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    Re: Unknown - portuguese? Uniform

    Post by vonstuck on Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:16 pm

    Hello
    Mike, thank for the picture of Mozambique soldiers
    Steve, on the first and the guy in foreground of the second picture of Mozambique soldiers, the colors of the pattern are identical at the current Portugal marines pattern
    On my website a shirt with colors as "Northern Alliance" camo
    http://vonstuckcamouflage.free.fr/mozambique.php
    Gilles

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    Re: Unknown - portuguese? Uniform

    Post by mcoleman762 on Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:23 am

    Glad you like the photos guys!

    Gilles is correct, those para-style jackets are the same pattern as the current Portuguese Marines pattern. The base color is a much brighter yellowish-green than the old Pattern 63. Also, as he's pointed out, Mozambique does use the "Northern Alliance" camo, of which he has a very nice example of the shirt! I know I've got a photo or two of it in use around here somewhere.

    Cheers,

    Mike

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    Re: Unknown - portuguese? Uniform

    Post by CollectinSteve on Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:44 am

    Thanks Gilles and Mike! I see the cut of the Northern Alliance camouflage is different for Mozambique compared to Northern Alliance and the many commercial uniforms out there. This is good to know! I'm happy to know my eyes were correct when I thought I saw the shoulder rank on Northern Alliance type cloth.

    So if I understand you correctly, the Mozambique para jacket is the same as Portuguese *but* is made for Mozambique? Meaning, they are not just using Portuguese surplus items?

    Steve

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    Re: Unknown - portuguese? Uniform

    Post by vonstuck on Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:49 am

    The pattern "look like" the Portugal marines pattern ( I have not a Mozambique sample for compare) but not the cut of the garment
    the Portugal marines pattern have cut near the old Portugal paratrooper garment
    My old paratrooper garment: http://vonstuckcamouflage.free.fr/portugal.php
    Gilles

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