M84 Camouflage Uniform

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    Camo_fiend
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    M84 Camouflage Uniform

    Post by Camo_fiend on Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:47 am

    Found this brand-new from Sportsman's Guide of all places -- for less than half what the airsofter shops charge for USED sets (sadly, outside of eBay, the majority of retailers carrying M84 were geared toward airsofters). Needless to say I jumped right on this bargain! Very Happy

    Parka and trousers


    Close-up of the parka tag


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    Re: M84 Camouflage Uniform

    Post by CollectinSteve on Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:58 am

    I got a jacket from SG and the trousers are on back order. Note that the trousers are the Garrison type, not the ones for field use.

    My guess is that these are quality control rejects. I think this for three reasons:

    1. The Danish military does not surplus its camouflage uniforms at all, as far as I know, but especially not brand new.

    2. I have seen several eBayers reselling quality control rejected Danish desert uniforms.

    3. The colors are very dull compared to my 1999 dated M/84 and T/99 uniforms. On closer inspection I can see that the black color has bled into the greens, which is a sign of a printing problem with dye color fastness.

    Don't get me wrong... it's still an awesome item and at a dirt cheap price. I'm certainly not returning mine Very Happy But I do think it's likely that this is a rejected item of some sort.

    Steve

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    Re: M84 Camouflage Uniform

    Post by Philip on Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:07 am

    How much did you pay for them?


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    Re: M84 Camouflage Uniform

    Post by Camosaurus on Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:58 am

    I think $35 for the jacket and $20 for the pants. I got 2 pants and I'm going to make them into shorts. Laughing

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    Re: M84 Camouflage Uniform

    Post by Camo_fiend on Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:54 pm

    CollectinSteve wrote:I got a jacket from SG and the trousers are on back order. Note that the trousers are the Garrison type, not the ones for field use.

    My guess is that these are quality control rejects. I think this for three reasons:

    1. The Danish military does not surplus its camouflage uniforms at all, as far as I know, but especially not brand new.

    2. I have seen several eBayers reselling quality control rejected Danish desert uniforms.

    3. The colors are very dull compared to my 1999 dated M/84 and T/99 uniforms. On closer inspection I can see that the black color has bled into the greens, which is a sign of a printing problem with dye color fastness.

    Don't get me wrong... it's still an awesome item and at a dirt cheap price. I'm certainly not returning mine Very Happy But I do think it's likely that this is a rejected item of some sort.

    Steve
    I thought these were the service trousers... I know these don't have the drawstring legs. And don't the combat trousers have covered buttons on the pockets, with pleats to expand when they're full?

    I didn't notice anything wrong with the colouration on my uniform in terms of "bleeding" or anything like that... the pattern just seems a lot darker in person than it does in photos. I didn't see anything on the jacket that indicated quality control issues (like a stamp or additional tag), but that doesn't mean they're not still rejects of some sort.

    My question is; why would these lay around in brand-new condition, still in the bags for six years before being sold? I found that kind of interesting.

    Philip wrote:How much did you pay for them?
    With shipping, it came out to $65. I had a $5 off coupon. Laughing


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    Re: M84 Camouflage Uniform

    Post by Easy Gee on Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:26 pm

    As before Ben, very nice,Danish camo is becoming a fave of mine...love it mate,nice one Cool

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    M84 development.

    Post by fourtycoats on Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:20 pm

    The dark colour is standard for the current generation of M84. The cloth mix is 67% poly, 33% cotton. The previous generation was 50/50 and the first version was 67% cotton, 33% poly. I have noticed this before on other country's uniforms as the % of poly increased and suspect that the cloth mix and dyeing process have something to do with it.

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    Re: M84 Camouflage Uniform

    Post by CollectinSteve on Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:16 pm

    Ben,

    Yes, the garrison type has exposed buttons and is patterned after British P-58 (I think that's the number!), which is also a popular style for South African stuff. The combat trousers have covered buttons. The only type I saw in Sportsmans Guide was the garrison style.

    Who knows what the logic is for nations and their surplussing habits. Back when OIF was still young the US Army was having trouble outfitting all of its soldiers with DCUs in one place and selling off brand new DCUs at another place. Crazy!

    Fourtycoats,

    Yeah, I noticed the cloth difference and figured that had something to do with darkness. They could have made it brighter if they wanted to, though, as I've got plenty of high poly count uniforms with very bright colors. However, it does appear more difficult to achieve.

    I still see bleeding of the black when I look at mine. It's very subtle, but definitely there. Looking at the edges of the black shapes there is a faint line of discoloration that is consistent with colorfast dye problems.

    Now, I have no idea if these things are, in fact, quality control rejections. The Danes might have been just fine with both the darker coloration and/or the faint black bleed out. I'm just saying that there are some reasons to suspect these might have been rejected.

    One thing that I don't see is some sort of rejection stamp on the label or elsewhere. Most countries use something, but again I have no knowledge of what the Danes use either way.

    Regardless, I'm happy with mine and I'm keeping it Wink

    Steve

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    Re: M84 Camouflage Uniform

    Post by Martin on Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:55 am

    Saw truckloads of these brand new uniforms in Poland earlier this year, being sold at flea markets and surplus stores.


    PS Steve, got your email, just been away again, will reply shortly... Wink

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    M84 development.

    Post by fourtycoats on Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:10 am

    Here are the 4 variations of M84 from left to right:
    1. 1980 100% cotton?
    2. 1992 67% cotton 33%poly
    3. 1996 50/50
    4. 2004 33/67

    Sorry about the poor image quality on the labels photos.

    [img][/img]
    [img][/img]

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    Re: M84 Camouflage Uniform

    Post by Camo_fiend on Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:42 pm

    Interesting information, fourtycoats. Thanks for sharing!


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    Re: M84 Camouflage Uniform

    Post by CollectinSteve on Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:31 am

    Oooo.... I think that 1980 produced jacket *might* be T/78. The colors look correct for it, but I'm not sure if T/78 was produced in 1980. If that is T/78, I tip my hat to you Very Happy

    Look at the picture of the four patterns next to each other. Even in this small shot it is possible to see the black ink bleed problem I mentioned. In fact, it might be worse than the one I have. Difficult to say from such a small picture.

    The problem, to restate it, is the black ink partially bled into the surrounding colors. This makes a sort of faint "purple glow" around the black shapes because the ink is mixing with the greens. If you look at anything earlier or older than these 2004 samples you will see hard, crisp lines.

    It is also interesting to note that this is yet another jacket from 2004. Unfortunately I don't see any contract information on the tag so it isn't possible to compare to see if they came from the same lot. But this adds to my suspicion that these 2004 produced jackets were quality control rejections.

    Steve

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    Re: M84 Camouflage Uniform

    Post by fourtycoats on Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:26 am

    The left hand jacket is a T78 and I have the matching trousers, combat and garrison. I included it as it was the first model to use the distinctive Danish cammo pattern

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    Re: M84 Camouflage Uniform

    Post by CollectinSteve on Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:15 am

    You lucky sod! I've been after T/78 for at least 10 years now. Good for you!

    Today I received my garrison trousers from Sportsmans Guide. 2004 dated, like the jackets, and has the same black bleed problem as the jackets. Again, I really think this stuff was punted onto the surplus market because it was deemed unacceptable for military use. Either that or they had kept this in the back room just in case they needed it, but now they have gone to a slightly modified cut (chest rank, no epaulettes) they figured they might as well just be rid of them.

    Steve

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    Re: M84 Camouflage Uniform

    Post by saltefanden on Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:02 pm

    Hello all, I´ve actually just signed on the forum to participate in this very thread.

    First; as a Dane, it never cease to amaze me how great a following the M/84 camo has, and second; I have been looking into the whole '2004-made combat uniform-conundrum' myself and have made the following conclusion:

    As CollectinSteve have been saying from the get-go, the (Finnish or Polish made) 2004 garrison and combat uniforms have indeed been rejected by the Royal Danish Forces on quality issues, as I have seen virtually none in service today.
    The print and overall fabric quality is both darker and more 'polyester-esque' than earlier and later versions.

    The 2004 version is a well sewn and constructed uniform, and in some respects it even surpasses the much sought-after 1999 and later 2006-models.
    But, as CollectinSteve has tiredlessly pointed out, the colour scheme is much darker and much cruder than standard issue uniforms, and it is especially the bleeding of the black colour into the surrounding spots, as well as a much darker light-green, that sets it apart.

    The Danish Army does not sell their surplus uniforms or gear, but rather destroy it.
    From time to time a wholesale lot of helmets, boots or sleeping bags gets sold off on their surplus auctions, along with mess utensils, clamped out cars and machinery.
    But flak vests, helmet covers and especially brand new uniform systems are NEVER sold to the general public, which lead me to park my car even further in CollectinSteve´s garage; the 2004 uniforms are rejects and very much off in colour and feel to usual Danish issued M/84.

    I look forward to sharing my camo-collecting bug with good people like yourselves, and please do not hesitate to contact me on Danish or Scandinavian camouflage issues!

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    Re: M84 Camouflage Uniform

    Post by CollectinSteve on Fri Dec 24, 2010 3:22 am

    Cool! Do I win a prize? Anything but black licorice with salt in it. Although I am 1/4 Danish (got the Danish last name, blond hair, blue eyes, etc.) I can not understand how this abomination is so popular in Denmark. In fact, I think this is why my great-grandfather left Copenhagen Very Happy

    Back on topic... thanks for the information, Ronny. The biggest thing that is suspicious is the fact that these items are available at all. As you say, the Danes generally destroy their gear and only a small amount slips out into the surplus market. And that stuff is usually very used.

    Now, if a contractor made the items and the Danish government rejected them, who owns the rejects? Unless the Danish government paid for the items my guess is the manufacturer owns them. Maybe there was a couple of years with lawyers fighting with each other over this, but in the end I theorize the manufacturer sold the stuff off at a loss simply to get some money back. This explains why brand new, all 2004, items are now suddenly on the market and CHEAP. Used jackets *or* trousers tend to sell for 2-5 times more than the brand new sets sold by Sportsmans Guide!

    Ronny, do you know if there were large amounts of rejected desert items? This is what one of my contacts in the UK told me about. He might have been confused with the regular green version.

    Thanks for stopping in!

    Steve

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    Re: M84 Camouflage Uniform

    Post by saltefanden on Fri Dec 24, 2010 9:16 am

    WelI Steve, I guess the Danish and Finnish tastebuds are as rare and destinguished as our respective national camouflages, since I´ve only ever met danes or finns who appreciate a good, eye-wateringly salty licorice! Mo' licorice for us, I guess... xD

    But on the topic, there has never been any official statements or mentioning in Danish press about rejected uniforms, but I´ve scoured a lot of old discussions on other forums, and it seems around 2006 the first of the 2004-made uniforms hit the markets via eBay and several Finnish dealers, who equipped a large portion of Canadian, American and English airsoft teams looking for M/84. A Finnish firm who makes work wear and uniforms called Finlayson Forssa was mentioned, but I have heard the stories of large lots being sold from Poland as well, so I'm not totally 100% sure where the uniforms were made, or by whom.

    But I would recon that if the Danish state had paid and then rejected the lot, they would be stuch either with the cumbersome and costly process of destroying them or with the bother of finding outlets or selling it to wholesalers. Therefore it is my guess that who ever produced the uniforms and had then rejected, had to sell lock and stock cheaply to make up for lost profit and to break even.

    On a further note there seems also to be a limited selection in the sizes on offer in e-stores, possibly indicating that not a full production run in all HMAK sizes were made.

    But as several has pointed out in the thread, there are many shades in the M/84 issued over the years, and there is nothing wrong with the quality and tailoring of the 2004 lot, you could argue that the cotton/poly blend is even more water repellant than on other 'vintages'.

    Very merry X-mas to all, and hope you will all find what you wished for in your camo-stockings!

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    Re: M84 Camouflage Uniform

    Post by saltefanden on Fri Dec 24, 2010 10:14 am

    Uh ahh, about the rejected desert camo, that is news to me if that should be the case. But there has been rather a few brand new jackets and especially under armour shirts in local Danish surplus stores (write to the boys at www.usol.dk).

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    Re: M84 Camouflage Uniform

    Post by CollectinSteve on Fri Dec 24, 2010 4:04 pm

    Thanks for the follow ups!

    It is my "professional" collector's opinion that these sets are worth getting. I am sure at some point they will be considered "collectable" and worth more than what we're paying for them now. I base this on several other misfit uniforms that have wound up being desirable simply because the novelty or the difficulty in getting a brand new item without defects.

    One extreme case I know of is the New Zealand "Diesel" uniforms. These were very darkly printed DPM uniforms that were accepted and issued by the New Zealand MoD. They gained their nickname because it looks similar to what a standard DPM uniform would look like if put into a barrel of diesel (or more accurately, motor oil IMHO). The troops hated them and nobody could figure out why they were being issued. A friend of mine in the NZ Army said there was an internal inquiry about how these were accepted (since there was no official call for a color change) and the officer making the report found out some things and was told to forget he ever wrote it if he wanted to do more than command a soup kitchen platoon. These uniforms are now some of the most expensive NZ collectable uniforms out there, despite the NZ Army quietly trying to get rid of them.

    Steve

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    Re: M84 Camouflage Uniform

    Post by saltefanden on Fri Dec 24, 2010 10:13 pm

    Oh yes, oh yes, I concur!

    Get your rejected M/84 while you can!
    For all M/84 buffs out there; I´ve seen and happily bought genuine Arktis smocks in M/84 within the last 6 months, who dispite being equally far from the true Danish Forces colour scheme as the 2004-made uniforms, work very well and blend straight into the rather put-together uniform system that is Danish M/84.

    Get them on eBay while they last and you won´t be disappointed or robbed (189 USD) - the smocks are of the usual high Arktis standard, albeit being a few shades brighter than normal HMAK issue, but they do come with 'Dannebrog', the Danish flag on the left sleeve and they are much in use amongst professional Danish soldiers, NCO´s and officers.

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    Re: M84 Camouflage Uniform

    Post by saltefanden on Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:11 pm

    A little new, if speculative, information on the quality of 2004-made, HMAK-labeled Danish combat jackets and pants;

    I've just spoken to an educated textile designer, and asked for a professional opinion on the difference in fabric between different M/84 'vintages'.
    Apart from the obvious and stated poly/cotton blends on wash tags, the weave seems to be uniformly twill, with a high density to resist wear and weather.

    I have jackets and pants of both the 2003, 2004 and 2005 variant, and only the 2004-kind stood out (of course) in colour but particularly in composition. Her view was that though the 2004 wash tag/label was stated as 65% poly and 35% cotton, the poly content seemed much higher, which may have resulted in an unfavourable reaction in the dyeing process (bleeding of colours or wrong hues). If fabric was made and printed in Poland and only later sown in Finland, that might go a long way to explain the confusion of the productions origin...

    Since the fabrics production, dyeing and tailoring are three different processes, the result may have, somewhere 'fallen between two chairs', rendering the final quality of the garments unacceptable to the Danish Army, and hence the vast number of 2004-'issue' uniforms available for sale around the world.

    I've been trying to upload pictures of the different qualities, but the format of this site is a little over my web-abilities, so should anyone be able to give me a step-by-step guide how to do it best with only a hotmail, I'll be much obliged!

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    Re: M84 Camouflage Uniform

    Post by drmatz on Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:42 pm

    Very interesting information guys

    thanks for sharing... I always thought there was something wrong about the most recent m84 stuff... I got rid of all of mine, hopefully i didn't do a mistake, but there's something about the fabric and print that bothers me, looks much "cheaper" than the older stuff. here is a few of my uniforms.

    NBC suit- 50/50


    Air Force jacket - 50/50



    M84 jacket 50/50


    Tropical m84


    T/99






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    Re: M84 Camouflage Uniform

    Post by saltefanden on Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:23 pm

    Wow Mr. Matz,

    That is an impressive and beautifully varied hoard of genuine, issued Danish gear!

    Especially your Danish Airforce velcro-fitted jacket and the ripstop 'Balkan'-shirt/ligth jacket should insure a high envy-factor on this very forum!
    Those things are hard enough to come by in their native country, so I can only imagine the pain, amounts of patience and financial cost you went through to procure this gear! Kudos to you!

    Like Sir CollectinSteve said earlier; the unissued or rejected fate of the darker pattern may not be a reason to rid your collection of it entirely, as so many early issued, unissued, trials or rejected uniform systems sometimes reach near mythic status.

    And since so many Canadian, American, European (especially the French) and even Malaysian air soft teams seem to rip through the 2004 stuff, because of its high accessibility and low prices, and the fact that they really use it instead of collecting/saving it, you'll probably soon see the bulging commercial availability go down.

    Like I said - please, give a genuine web-spastic a quick lesson on how to upload pictures, and I'll regale all with what I've got!

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    Re: M84 Camouflage Uniform

    Post by CollectinSteve on Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:49 pm

    Sportsmans Guide is sold out of trousers already for more than a month. As of that time they still had jackets. I found a German eBay "NATO Shop" that has both trousers and jackets still for sale, but like Saltefanden said... they will soon be gone. It's worth keeping a set in a collection because it will soon be hard to find.

    Steve

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    Re: M84 Camouflage Uniform

    Post by koalorka on Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:51 pm

    Well damn, and here I thought I satisfied the Denmark component in my collection...

    Now I need to spend millions of Euros and convince someone to surrender an old "proper" issued set. Twisted Evil

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