BGS Jacket 1

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    Gulf91
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    BGS Jacket 1

    Post by Gulf91 on Wed May 18, 2011 3:54 pm

    Not my area this but believe it to be a BGS jacket and seems to have some form of arc insignia missing from above the other patch and the shoulder boards---







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    Re: BGS Jacket 1

    Post by chevpol on Wed May 18, 2011 4:13 pm

    mmmm, nice

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    Re: BGS Jacket 1

    Post by Easy Gee on Wed May 18, 2011 5:10 pm

    Love it,I used to have a BGS Parka which is long gone now..gutted Wink
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    Re: BGS Jacket 1

    Post by Camo_fiend on Wed May 18, 2011 5:38 pm

    Indeed a BGS smock. It's great to see one that hasn't been sliced up at the back as most surplussed BGS smocks are.


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    Re: BGS Jacket 1

    Post by Gulf91 on Wed May 18, 2011 5:51 pm

    Camo_fiend wrote:Indeed a BGS smock. It's great to see one that hasn't been sliced up at the back as most surplussed BGS smocks are.

    Thanks,I also another in unissued condition but the sleeve pocket flap has been removed as have the rear D rings.
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    Re: BGS Jacket 1

    Post by CollectinSteve on Thu May 19, 2011 1:40 am

    Pretty good condition 1st production run (1967) BGS 3rd Model Sumpftarn jacket. From roughly 1967 until 1970 there was only an arm shield badge, no arc, on BGS uniforms. This changed around 1970 and many older jackets were retrofitted with the arc badge. This shield badge is for the long winter coat (Mantel), not for a combat uniform. Stitching style is also incorrect. Here are some pics to compare against:






    The two flaps pictured are from early models manufactured with a "post" type snap, compared to the common ring type. Not an important thing other than it dates them to 1967. The flap on the left has the older, cloth backed type eagle shield badge. The arc on the one to the left was a retrofit and not on the jacket when originally manufactured. It has the less common camouflage backed eagle shield badge. The badges along the left side of the picture show the variety of sizes these damned things came in. Frustrating when trying to find an exact match! The one in the lower right corner is the type used for the Dienstmantel (green full length coat, wool or polyester blend).

    There were four principle ways the BGS demilled their jackets:

    1. Slice off the arm pocket flap (extremely common)
    2. 1-3 vertical cuts from the shoulders down almost to the butt
    3. D-Rings sliced off
    4. Several vertical cuts on the arm pocket flap, but left attached

    Usually it was just #1, but I've seen poor bastard jackets that got 1, 2, and 3!

    Steve

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    Re: BGS Jacket 1

    Post by Gulf91 on Thu May 19, 2011 3:28 am

    Pics of the pop studs and you can see a faint outline of where an arc was once sewn on.





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    Re: BGS Jacket 1

    Post by Delta 66 on Fri May 27, 2011 4:40 am

    I have a rain cape in this cam pattern. Thought it may have been german Very Happy
    Will post up when I get a chance.
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    Re: BGS Jacket 1

    Post by CollectinSteve on Fri May 27, 2011 3:21 pm

    Thanks for the updated pics!

    If you mean the "apron" type, yes... 1960s BGS issue. Pretty much useless by the looks of it Very Happy

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    Re: BGS Jacket 1

    Post by koalorka on Fri May 27, 2011 4:50 pm

    Wow, that's some amazing detail that you were able to record on the BGS jackets Steve!

    My question for you, I have a 1975 3rd pattern. Were these fitted with ranked shoulder epaulets like the earlier models?
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    Re: BGS Jacket 1

    Post by CollectinSteve on Sat May 28, 2011 2:05 am

    The easiest way to become a specialist is to buy everything you can find in one particular area Very Happy Here's the scoop on ranks...

    1st and 2nd Model Smocks had no ranks.
    1st Model Jacket (which was experimental) had no rank.
    2nd Model Jacket initially had no rank, but sometime later did.
    3rd Model Jacket initially had "narrow" type rank, then switched to the later "wide" type rank (width refers to the strap that secures rank to the shoulder.

    Therefore, if you have a 1975 jacket yours should have the "wide" type rank on it. Which means you should have loops at the shoulders and buttons half way towards the collar. If you don't, check closely and you'll see evidence they were there at one point.

    I've probably had a dozen of the 3rd Model jackets in my hands over the years. I don't know why I keep buying them only to turn around and trade/sell them, but I do Smile

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    Re: BGS Jacket 1

    Post by CollectinSteve on Sat May 28, 2011 2:11 am

    Oh, and interesting to note that the darker area under where the arc used to be! This tells me the jacket was probably sitting in a warehouse, unused, for a couple of years. Then it was retrofitted to have the arc and put out into the field. I'm still unsure when the arc badge was first introduced, but I've narrowed it down to 1969/1970 with a reasonable degree of certainty.

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    Re: BGS Jacket 1

    Post by Delta 66 on Sat May 28, 2011 2:41 am

    Its a really nice cam pattern. Was it only issued to border units?
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    Re: BGS Jacket 1

    Post by koalorka on Sat May 28, 2011 2:48 pm

    Delta 66 wrote:Its a really nice cam pattern. Was it only issued to border units?

    The Czechs used German machinery to manufacture uniforms in sumpftarn for their own army for a few years following the war, and of course the Wehrmacht used it extensively on their winter parkas and other garments.
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    Re: BGS Jacket 1

    Post by CollectinSteve on Sat May 28, 2011 4:08 pm

    The BGS Sumpftarn is unique to BGS. It is directly derived from one of the WW2 patterns, but it's easily distinguishable from them. Interestingly enough, BGS units authorized to wear Sumpftarn did not do so along the borders with the DDR and Czechoslovakia (probably not other countries either). The Germans wanted their border guards to look less aggressive, therefore they wore either standard service dress or a uniform in the same cut as Sumpftarn but in a bluish gray color. This meant that Sumpftarn was effectively worn only on training exercises.

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    Re: BGS Jacket 1

    Post by koalorka on Sat May 28, 2011 11:48 pm

    CollectinSteve wrote:The easiest way to become a specialist is to buy everything you can find in one particular area Very Happy Here's the scoop on ranks...

    1st and 2nd Model Smocks had no ranks.
    1st Model Jacket (which was experimental) had no rank.
    2nd Model Jacket initially had no rank, but sometime later did.
    3rd Model Jacket initially had "narrow" type rank, then switched to the later "wide" type rank (width refers to the strap that secures rank to the shoulder.

    Therefore, if you have a 1975 jacket yours should have the "wide" type rank on it. Which means you should have loops at the shoulders and buttons half way towards the collar. If you don't, check closely and you'll see evidence they were there at one point.

    Steve

    Hmmm, I have the loops on the shoulders, but I can't find any buttons or vestigial traces of them.



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    Re: BGS Jacket 1

    Post by CollectinSteve on Sun May 29, 2011 4:00 am

    The buttons are almost always cut off nice and clean. You need to look very, very closely to find the stitch holes sometimes. Especially for a jacket in great condition like yours. Sometimes it is easier to find the stitch holes from the inside of the shoulder instead of the top side. Look right next to the shoulder seam about 3.5" from the shoulder loop. Or take any West German shoulder rank, military or police, and put it through the loop and see where the button hole comes to on the shoulder.

    One trick is finding the correct buttons for the shoulders. BGS and Polizei use buttons 1mm smaller than Bundeswehr, which means BW buttons are incompatiable. 19mm are used for the fronts and pockets, 16mm are used for the shoulders. They should have a very small pebble texture and give off no shine. BW uses 1mm bigger for both and the more recent types are shiny and often have larger pebble texture. Not that most people would notice the difference Very Happy

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    Re: BGS Jacket 1

    Post by 2/1kiwi on Mon May 30, 2011 2:30 am

    I managed to get one free today will post up when my camera recharges.
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    Re: BGS Jacket 1

    Post by 2/1kiwi on Mon May 30, 2011 3:59 am

    Here is the one I got today, had been sitting in a q store as was being used as opfor dress.
    From what i can see from the photos in this thread it is missing the rank slide buttons and the velcro pocket on the sleeve.
    But I got it for nothing so pretty happy.

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    Re: BGS Jacket 1

    Post by CollectinSteve on Mon May 30, 2011 1:02 pm

    This is what I consider the "typical" demil job. Generally good condition jacket but with the pocket flap sliced off. The sliced off flaps can be purchased, as the BGS kept them (see above pic of mine), but of course they can't be sewn back on. I did sew one back onto a jacket I have because the cut to the jacket side was unusually low and one of my spare flaps was unusually long. Doesn't look too bad for a beater jacket to wear around, but it's certainly not worthy of a serious collection.

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    Re: BGS Jacket 1

    Post by 2/1kiwi on Mon May 30, 2011 5:50 pm

    lol ok cheers.

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    Re: BGS Jacket 1

    Post by CollectinSteve on Tue May 31, 2011 1:26 am

    I've seen some guys remove the velcro, pen holders, and snaps to make it look nicer. Worsens any collector value, of course, but it's more likely to impress the chicks without the goofy exposed velcro Very Happy

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    Re: BGS Jacket 1

    Post by 2/1kiwi on Tue May 31, 2011 1:45 am

    lol cheers for the info, way too small for me to wear Very Happy, and ive just seen another one, the material is in very good condition but in addition the chest pockets have also been removed.

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    Re: BGS Jacket 1

    Post by CollectinSteve on Tue May 31, 2011 4:13 pm

    Chest pockets removed? That's a first for me Smile There's a lot of "vests" out there where some enterprising surplus dealer unstitched the sleeves. This has been done to BW Moleskin jackets as well. Maybe for fishermen? Those guys don't mind looking goofy Smile

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    Re: BGS Jacket 1

    Post by 2/1kiwi on Tue May 31, 2011 4:28 pm

    sorry i meant the flapsfor the chest pockets Very Happy

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