Spanish Guerrillero camo

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    Solideo
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    Spanish Guerrillero camo

    Post by Solideo on Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:37 am

    Hello again:

    I recently got this picture of Spanish "guerrilleros", coes, green berets. It´s dated early 60´s and made while Special Operations qualification in Military Mountain School.

    Asked the son of one of the members of that patrol I have been told that the photo should have probably taken in 1963-64.

    They are wearing a camo pattern I have never seen. He told me that at that time this clothes were rarely used and that they were manufactured in USA with german clothe.The suit was trated like greased for water protection (like many of early camos in Spain). I am not sure of this, probably it came from any US base in Europe). I even find some diferences between both uniforms (clips in brest pocket, adjust in wrist level...)

    Can any of you identify this uniform? Thanks a lot


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    Re: Spanish Guerrillero camo

    Post by nkomo on Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:15 pm

    Solideo,
    I am certainly not an expert on European camouflage uniforms and I'm not saying that the uniform wasn't made in the US, but that uniform is cut nothing like any US uniforms of that time period that I am aware of. It looks simialr in cut to the Vietnam jungle fatiges, but those pockets were slanted and made from a light-weight cotton material. I hope someone else could shed some light on this situation.
    Arch


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    CollectinSteve
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    Re: Spanish Guerrillero camo

    Post by CollectinSteve on Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:32 pm

    Hmmm... very tough to say with such a small, B&W, dark picture. My first guess is that it's Zapadores "splotch" like the attached photo below.



    The style of the jacket and trousers are definitely consistent with the Zapadores pattern, plus the time used (early 1960s) is also the right time. I have heard that COE used some of these uniforms, but the numbers would have been very small. This might explain why they were considered rare by the COE soldier.

    The features to note are the triple snap chest pockets and the wrist adjustments. Neither feature is present on Amoeba jackets at this period of time. The pockets of the trousers are also consistent with the Zapadores uniform, which were different than other Spanish trouser pockets of the time.

    What I can say is that this is not German cloth. I also think it is doubtful that the uniforms were manufactured in the US from foreign cloth and sent back to Spain. The US does not have a history of doing such things and it was not overly friendly with Spain at the time.

    Well, that's my best guess!

    Steve

    Solideo
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    Re: Spanish Guerrillero camo

    Post by Solideo on Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:52 am

    Well Steve, it´s a good guess.

    Yoy are probably in the correct way, I have been checking my Uniform and it´s more than probably it´s that suit.

    Here is the trousers



    Here is the jacket



    There is also a helmet cover, but I haven´t photographed it yet.

    Notice the waist metal hooks for belt, just a reminiscence with german WWII jackets, of course the dot pattern does to.

    When Ezapac was born in 1946 it was made in a nearly imitation of what was the German parachoutist assault group in WWII (remember the afinity with Germany during that time)

    Sometimes the information given by by family is mistaken or disolved in time.

    I put 2 links of videos of Ezapac in 1968, you can see there both dot uniforms used by them

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VNd5O5YZh8&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UhgZtmnY-w

    Otherwise about your uniform Steve, I would like to know if that arm patch came with it, It´looks like a so actual one for that uniform. Plastic models were used in late 70´s-early 80´s.

    Going back to history of this "dot uniform", even it´s always called like the EZAPAC one, in Spain we lived a time of almost poverty, so equipment was not a priority. Talkint to veterans I was told most of the camos uniforms were used just for a couple of times during the military service, most times used when needed to show population an special image of army, like this photo where this dot uniform was given to DAC Brunete nº1 (Cavalry)in 1964 in a Victory Parade just for that day (never more given, just for that Parade)



    There is also evidence of it´s use by Mountain troops.

    Going inside legend, somebody told me, that an officer has told him that those uniforms had been made for Portuguese colonies by a Spanish factory but they were desestimated because of it´s thick manufacturation (not good for hot weather), so Spanish army bought them in low cost (perhaps this thick manufacturation made them appropiate for paras and mountain troops, and of course for photo situations, loool)

    Anyway this is legend, so no possibility to be sure of that.

    Changing to other thing, dear Steve, US had not bad relationships with Spain at that moment at all, in fact, without forgetting the fascist reeminiscence of Franco, the current problem of the cold war werw soviets, and Spain had not a good relation to them at all.
    Spain received a lot of help from the US (economic and military) at that time with the European Recovery Program, which was made to control comunists. So Spain allowed American Military bases were installed in Spanish territory like a cooperation defense treatment.

    Here you have a photo of a combat exercises between Americans and Spanish during the 60´s. (Spanish force is formed by paras (black berets and mountain troops). It´s a curiosity that mountait troopers don´t wear camo cap, althoug it exists, so is more than probably that this short jacket uniform was just recently given to the mountain troops for that exercise.




    Well lots of things to talk about uniformity and history, but my English is so poor that I spend so much time to say less than a half that I wanted.

    Thanks you all for the reply and specially Steve, who I think is good in Spanish uniforms cheers

    Best regards and sorry for this kind of heavy block I wrote ((I dont work these days Sad )

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    Re: Spanish Guerrillero camo

    Post by CollectinSteve on Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:26 pm

    Thanks for the information and pictures!

    I agree the badge on my jacket is not correct, but it came with it. I am sure someone put it on in recent years.

    My comment about US-Spanish relationship... what I meant is this. When the US gave aid to friendly countries (and Spain was definitely friendly) it used US materials because it gave jobs to US workers. The items were usually US military surplus or manufactured almost identical to US military items. I don't think the relationship with Spain was so special that material would come from Spain, made into non-US style uniforms in the US, and then sent back to Spain. Of course it is possible, I just don't think it is true.

    I know that it takes a long time for you to write in English, but I hope you continue! The information is very good Very Happy

    Steve

    Solideo
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    Re: Spanish Guerrillero camo

    Post by Solideo on Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:10 am

    Of course I don´t think that manufacturation was made in the US with Spanish materials.

    The information given by the son of one of the characters of the photo made me think probably de clothe was german and manufacturated by an US factory in any of their bases in Europe (Germany included).

    But...as you know time disturbes many datails and more when the informer was a kid in that time.

    Nice to discuss in this forum, I love destroying my neurones tryint to make me "understable" in English Laughing

    BR

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    Re: Spanish Guerrillero camo

    Post by CollectinSteve on Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:46 am

    Yes, details handed from one person to another often lose accuracy. Add 10-20 years to that and things often become very wrong. Unfortunately, very few people think it is valuable to write down the information we want to know Sad

    Nice to discuss in this forum, I love destroying my neurones tryint to make me "understable" in English

    I do this to myself all the time... but in German Very Happy

    Cheers,

    Steve

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    Re: Spanish Guerrillero camo

    Post by alltoursnatives on Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:14 pm

    Hi guys
    Regarding this spanish pattern, and specially this jacket / trouser (sometime called wrongly as "EZAPAC uniform" is the COE -specials forces- cariant of the very well know M-62 but with a clear influence of the paratroops portugueses and frenchs first patterns. There are a couple of pictures in the spanish edition of the "soldiers" magazine, number 130 (july 2006) of greens berets usd this uniform. The different style of the pockets are probably a personal modification -custom-, the "snap chest" pocket are very "noise" in some missions ;-). I´t very interested see the pictures in details because you will see a similar items that you will see in the post "the Spanish Cetme Mag" -in picture you will see the Z-45 Pouches

    the ezapac M-62 are perfectly descrited in the ministerial publication, dated nov 8th 1962. I found the original document and you will check it in this link

    http://www.cascosdecombate.com/foro/index.php?topic=422.0

    in my personal opinion, between 1962 and 1965 the COE adopted a variant of the M-62 ,with some new additions (style of the pockets, different colors and some others details)

    there are a lot of amazing surprises in the spanish patterns yet!!

    All the best

    Santiago
    www.alltoursnatives.tk

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    Re: Spanish Guerrillero camo

    Post by vonstuck on Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:07 pm






    CollectinSteve
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    Re: Spanish Guerrillero camo

    Post by CollectinSteve on Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:09 pm

    Now that is interesting!! It is the first time I have ever seen a jacket like this, ever, in any Spanish camouflage. Certainly the first time in this camouflage pattern. It looks to be very well made. Do you have any history of this jacket?

    Steve

    ripcord
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    Re: Spanish Guerrillero camo

    Post by ripcord on Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:20 pm

    Mr.GIL said it best:

    " there are a lot of amazing surprises left in the spanish patterns yet "

    WOW !!! ripcord

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    Re: Spanish Guerrillero camo

    Post by CollectinSteve on Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:20 am

    Yup, there are still a lot of things out there that haven't been well documented. I've got a few on my own Very Happy The thing is, all the pieces I've seen that aren't well documented follow traditional Spanish uniform designs. This one does not, which is completely out of character for even the odd stuff. Now, if it was the same design as a dress jacket or usual field jacket, then it would make more sense to me. But hidden button, pleated pockets, exposed zipper front, no reinforced elbows, snaps at the wrists... these features combined don't make much sense.

    One thing to consider is that under Franco the use of camouflage outside the military was greatly restricted, so I don't think this could be a commercial piece unless someone found unused cloth after Franco was gone. Which is possible, though not likely. I wonder if Gilles' jacket is a tailor made item for an officer?

    Whatever it is, I am content to call it "one of a kind" custom made piece until we see at least another one.

    Steve

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    Re: Spanish Guerrillero camo

    Post by vonstuck on Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:11 pm

    I have this jacket since 15 years or more
    And I have find it in a surplus shop in my city
    Gilles

    ripcord
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    Spanish Guerrillero camo

    Post by ripcord on Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:11 am

    this one is a bit different

    ripcord

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    Spanish Guerrillero camo

    Post by ripcord on Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:12 am


    ripcord
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    Spanish Guerrillero camo

    Post by ripcord on Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:25 pm

    Hey All,

    A photo of an old photo of an M62 in my collection.

    Note the blue Spanish Air Force Overseas cap under the hood.  It came with the uniform.

    While cleaning out my attic last week end, I found a stash of goodies I had long forgotten  about.

    Among the small hoard was the long lost cap.  I had not seen it in at least 25 years...


    Rip...

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    Re: Spanish Guerrillero camo

    Post by CollectinSteve on Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:52 am

    That is a cool hat. Looks homemade. Good to dig around in old boxes and find forgotten beauties like that.

    Steve

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    Spanish Guerrillero camo

    Post by ripcord on Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:37 pm

    Thanks Steve,

    Finding old forgotten stuff is definitely a good feeling.

    The cap was something I had written off as lost, finding it was sweeter for that.

    rip...


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    Re: Spanish Guerrillero camo

    Post by alltoursnatives on Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:44 pm

    Hi guys
    I did not visit the forum for a while and WOW what a nice spanish items !!, specially your beautiful items "ripcord", excellent collection. The set of this picture is a rare M-65 used during the special courses in Jaca (EMMOE Escuela Militar de Montaña y Operaciones Especiales -military mountain school and special operations) is quite different than the M-61 used for EZAPAC (specials operations of the spanish Air Forces).The cap is the traditional air force cap, this example is post 1977 (Juan Carlos the first´s crown).
    very nice items
    All the best
    Alltoursnatives

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    Re: Spanish Guerrillero camo

    Post by ripcord on Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:13 pm

    Thanks for your comments Santiago.       I was very  lucky to have a good friend In Spain at the right time.

    The uniform you refer to as an M65 and  some others refer to as an M 61 is certainly  much different than all the other Spanish uniforms. It almost looks like a French cut Vegetata.

     I believe some evidence does show that it was used by candidates at the EMMOE.    Do you think it was also worn by cadre at the school ?

    I would like to know how long this uniform was in service. Was it issued to multiple classes at the school, or was it only issued to one class?   Was it ever used operationally ? And by whom ?

    All questions that are not likely to be answered anytime soon.  Would be nice to hear from a veteran of the school.

    The two uniforms look similar in pattern, but not in color and cut. One looks more" French" than the other.  Some refer to one as the " Fall " pattern M 61 while calling the other the "Spring" pattern M61. 
    I tend to do that for the sake of ease of identification, while I respect your assessment.

    I thank you for your excellent book.  It is a priceless tool for any serious collector of Spanish camouflage uniforms and related militaria.
                                                                                                                                       
    Just one more thing I find strange.  My uniform, as well as Steve's both came with an EZAPAC patch.
     I understand that the patch is not period correct, but it is funny that both uniform had them sown on in the same place on the sleeve.

    PS I would like to know what you think of the uniform in the next posting.


    Last edited by ripcord on Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:52 pm; edited 3 times in total

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    Spanish Guerrillero camo

    Post by ripcord on Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:47 pm

    I received this uniform around 1985.  Supposedly a uniform used by a  Guardia Civil unit called GAR Grupo de Accion Rapida ( rapid response, or action group ).
    Another Spanish ( trial ?) uniform that is cut similarly to the 47/56.  Any thoughts ?



    alltoursnatives
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    Re: Spanish Guerrillero camo

    Post by alltoursnatives on Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:04 pm

    Hi Ripcord
    Thanks for your kind words, I´m working in a second book with all the spanish fatigue uniforms, used since 1943, plain and camouflage, it´s a very hard work but I´m enjoying a lot !!

    I saw many time that some collectors called M-61 for both patterns spring or fall. In any case, is a wrong denomination because the EZAPAC patterns was adopted in 1962, so this must be the right name "M-62".Please note that this is my personal denomination because the real name is "TRAJE DE LANZAMIENTO CAMUFLADO" - jumpsuit camouflage uniform or so.
    In 1965 there were a lot of change in the spanish army and were created some COMPAÑÍAS DE OPERACIONES ESPAÑOLES - special operations companies. Must be in this year 1965 the first year for the french style pattern soI called M-65. The set wereused in exercices, specially in internationals exercices. The EMMOE was created april 12nd 1945 and still is the spanish school for special operation

    Regarding the low visibility patch, is funny because I saw some pictures of this jacket with this patch, and they´re unoficials and PROBABLY never adopted or used. I have some of them in my collection. This patch wiih CIA ZAPADORES (it mean COMPAÑÍA ZAPADORES) has a horrible mistake. If you see the knive is a spanish mauser bayonet, as used the COE in emblems and the EZAPAC, also know as "Ella zapadores", used a very rare and hard to obtain "Machete", really an icono for this unit, and represented in all the patch of this special force
    You have an excellent collection!!
    all the best
    Alltoursnatives

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    Re: Spanish Guerrillero camo

    Post by ripcord on Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:30 pm

    Thank you, once more.

    The Cetme bayonet also has that machete look ...

    Have an Aitor knife that is similar to the famous cuchillo de montana.

    Please let me know when your next book is also available.

    alltoursnatives
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    Re: Spanish Guerrillero camo

    Post by alltoursnatives on Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:48 am

    Hi, it'll e-Mail when I have the new book ready, it'll take some extra time ;-)
    Best regards


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    Re: Spanish Guerrillero camo

    Post by alltoursnatives on Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:04 am

    Hi guys
    I recently found a trouser (comercial) with the beautiful pattern M-62. This will be very interesting if you compare the style of the beautiful jacket of Mr Guilles, specially the pockets. The colours are different but really similar . Early in the 80´s this pattern was replaced by M-69 green and brown "amoebas". a couple of spanish companies used the same pattern for civilizan (hunter). I´ll include some pictures
    Best regards
    https://i73.servimg.com/u/f73/13/77/60/03/m62_re10.jpg
    https://i73.servimg.com/u/f73/13/77/60/03/m62_re11.jpg
    https://i73.servimg.com/u/f73/13/77/60/03/m_62_r10.jpg
    https://i73.servimg.com/u/f73/13/77/60/03/m62_re13.jpg

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