my cadpat collection

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    CollectinSteve
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    Re: my cadpat collection

    Post by CollectinSteve on Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:21 am

    koalorka wrote:It's not a matter of talking to hundreds of people, it's a matter of simply referring to the Criminal Code of justice. Nowhere is it a criminal offense to poses CADPAT. Selling commercially or distributing from within Canadian Forces inventories is another matter all together regulated under the National Defence Act.

    I've told this story several times on this Forum, but I'll tell it again. It's 100% true and I personally got the raw end of part of this event:

    The first unit to use CADPAT overseas was the 22nd Regiment out of Quebec. This as a rotation in Bosnia. When they returned home they handed in their worn out uniforms (oh some of them were atrocious!) into supply. Someone there didn't get the memo about them being controlled, so they put them out for sale along with everything else just as they had been doing for years. Some got the D stamps, some didn't. A QC surplus shop owner bought a whole bunch of the stuff and had them in his shop. Right on the racks, ready to go. My eyes nearly popped out of my head because I had been told they were illegal to posses, not to mention sell out in the open! So what did I do? I bought pretty much all he had. Then for good measure I bought the rest a week later.

    The shop owner had more waiting for me along with a helmet and cover. I went back to the shop and was told they were all gone. The Military Police grabbed him at an open air market and were going to haul him into jail. He said he bought them legally and they said "prove it". He said the paperwork was at his house, so they DROVE him to his house right there and then. They waited on his doorstep, pistols in holsters, waiting for him to come out. He got the paperwork and they let him go. But not before they raided his shop and took every single piece of CADPAT he still had. Despite paying for these items, legally, they gave him no refund. In other words, under Canadian law the Canadian government committed an act of theft (in US law it would be Grand Larceny and is a felony).

    Obviously I didn't get my helmet! Fortunately the guy knew me for years and is very honest. I didn't pay for the helmet, but of course I also didn't get it either Sad

    Fortunately for me... the MPs missed a pair of trials CADPAT boots, unissued, that were sitting in their box on top of a tall shelf. So the trip wasn't a total loss as I now have one of the ugliest boots ever made sitting a few feet away from me Very Happy

    Governments do what they want to do when they want to do it. If you want to challenge unfair treatment, the expense is on your shoulders. If I were a Canadian citizen I would assume the law isn't on my side in this case and not do anything to attract attention.

    Steve


    Last edited by CollectinSteve on Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: my cadpat collection

    Post by CollectinSteve on Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:35 am

    BTW, it doesn't matter if there is no law prohibiting possession if there is no legal avenue for possession in the first place. Standard "receipt of stolen property" laws kick in. No need to have special CADPAT specific laws when the existing statutes are 100% applicable already.

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    koalorka
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    Re: my cadpat collection

    Post by koalorka on Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:23 am

    I can understand how they pursued him in selling a large number of uniforms commercially at an early stage, but the situation is very different now, at least that is my impression. Every surplus shop in Toronto has legitimate CADPAT, though they will deny it over the phone. It's been traded openly at the few militaria shows that I attended. I don't think they will be prosecuting hobbyists any time soon, at the same time, I'm not going to draw attention to myself.
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    Re: my cadpat collection

    Post by CollectinSteve on Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:02 pm

    Actually, if shop owners are still denying they have the genuine stuff, it's no different now than before. It's illegal and that's why they aren't selling them out on racks. In fact, the first legitimate CADPAT piece I got was in 2001 (or 2002?) at a shop in Montreal. Great old style surplus shop and I found all kinds of things to buy. The shop owner was about my age and we got to chatting since we obviously shared a deep interest in smelly surplus. Sensing I was a good fit for an offer, when there was nobody else in the shop he went to a back room and came out (or should I say "he came ooot" Wink) a few minutes later with CADPAT trousers. Paid cash for that and charged the rest. No paper trail.

    The point is that nobody should be fooled into thinking that possession of CADPAT outside of official military channels is legal in Canada. From everything I've seen and heard, it isn't. Though the chances are extremely low that a collector would get into more trouble than losing their item/s if caught. Even that is unlikely and probably wouldn't happen unless the collector was in trouble for some other reason and/or did something INCREDIBLY stupid, like wearing them.

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    Re: my cadpat collection

    Post by Tyler Flint on Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:50 pm

    EXACTLY THE POINT IVE BEEN TRYING TO MAKE ALL ALONG!!! Very Happy Very Happy No matter how (Or even if) the laws are enforced, bottom line its stil technicly illegal.

    ... for someone in Canada, yes. To the rest of the world it doesn't matter at all.

    As for CADPAT on eBay, if it is legitimate government issued stuff eBay does in fact pull down auction listings as a matter of policy (I know this happened to a Canadian a week or two ago). Whether eBay finds and/or pulls all the listings is a different matter.

    Legal or illegal is a hard and fast standard. It should never be confused with enforcement. They are supposed to be in synch, but sometimes they aren't. Just like anybody going 10 mph over the speed limit on the highway should know.... "hey, everybody speeds" is not going to get you out of a ticket if you're pulled over.

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    Re: my cadpat collection

    Post by Mk1rceme on Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:06 pm

    check out fleabay right now....tons of issue cadpat on there.
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    Re: my cadpat collection

    Post by Tyler Flint on Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:18 pm

    Fleabay Razz

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    Re: my cadpat collection

    Post by Spañiard on Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:06 pm

    Military gear missing from Afghan mission shipments

    Containers filled with rocks, sand, sources tell CBC News


    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/01/10/pol-pnp-afghan-container.html

    The RCMP and CF. MP's are now cracking down on all Web sites ect.
    And if you think You can't be prosecuted because your in the USA ect., Think again!

    The Old Style CADPAT is OK, not New or Current CF. ISSUE gear ect.

    No matter what country your in It's ileagale to posses or sell CF. current Issue gear.



    Last edited by Spañiard on Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: my cadpat collection

    Post by panzerwerk on Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:47 pm

    The department also said no uniforms were missing from any of the containers inventoried so far.

    "Equipment in these containers would consist of items such as tires, tools and tents," Nethercott said.

    The job of shipping the supplies back to Canada was contracted to Montreal company A.J. Maritime after the Canadian base in Kandahar was closed last November.

    The company's president, Alda Rodrigues, said pilfering has been a widespread problem for the shipping operations.

    "The situation in Afghanistan and Pakistan is volatile. Pilfering is occurring, but Canada is not alone," she said. "All NATO countries have a pilfering problem with their containers. No one knows where the pilfering is occurring."

    A.J. Maritime said 448 Canadian shipping containers remain in Afghanistan, while 182 have been returned to Canada and 40 are currently in transit.
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    Re: my cadpat collection

    Post by cobalt545 on Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:56 pm

    Spañiard wrote:Military gear missing from Afghan mission shipments

    Containers filled with rocks, sand, sources tell CBC News


    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/01/10/pol-pnp-afghan-container.html

    The RCMP and CF. MP's are now cracking down on all Web sites ect.
    And if you think You can't be prosecuted because your in the USA ect., Think again!

    The Old Style CADPAT is OK, not New or Current CF. ISSUE gear ect.

    No matter what country your in It's ileagale to posses or sell CF. current Issue gear.


    The article said no uniforms went missing. Only "tools, tires, and tents".
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    Re: my cadpat collection

    Post by panzerwerk on Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:22 pm

    Does not say they are cracking down on collectors either , and I have not heard of any of my fellow collectors being contacted about any pieces in their collections and its a pretty small world , My CADPAT came from a Canadian Museum , I traded some WWII items and other uniforms for my stuff.

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    Re: my cadpat collection

    Post by Spañiard on Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:42 pm

    panzerwerk wrote:Does not say they are cracking down on collectors either , and I have not heard of any of my fellow collectors being contacted about any pieces in their collections and its a pretty small world , My CADPAT came from a Canadian Museum , I traded some WWII items and other uniforms for my stuff.


    While armoured vehicles, guns, ammunition and uniforms were flown from Afghanistan to Canada on C-177 transport aircraft,
    hundreds of containers of military hardware were trucked first to Pakistan.



    I'm telling You the CF. ect are cracking down, even Ebay now removes listings of CF. current issue being Sold,
    however some is sold or gets under the Radar on ebay and found a few Items as I just took a look.
    Your CADPAT came from a Canadian Museum, and YOU live in the U.S.A., Ok I'm sure they'll except that, Lmaooooo.
    You can have CF. gear ect., that's been decommissioned or Old Uniforms ect, however didn't the CF. Burn a bunch of Old Style CADPAT Uniforms?

    Because your a collector makes no difference!

    I personally have Nothing that's CF. Issue since I live in Canada and don't need any problems.
    Even in the Olden Days when I served with CF., It was still Illegal to sell or especially Posses if your a Civilian.
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    Re: my cadpat collection

    Post by CollectinSteve on Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:09 pm

    Canadian law enforcement has no authority outside of their own borders, so effectively their laws stop at their borders. Just like US laws stop at their own borders. The exceptions are covered in bilateral treaties/agreements for specific criminal acts. In that case Canadian officials would have to issue a summons or warrant for arrest. These would go through the government where the offender resides (State Department in the case of the US). They would determine if the case has merit. If they do, then they can arrest the person on behalf of the Canadian government and possibly hold the person in detention until an extradition hearing determines if the person can be moved to face prosecution in Canada. After appeals are exhausted the person is either released (extradition fails) or is delivered to Canadian authorities in Canada.

    Now, if you think this applies to some guy with a pair of CADPAT AR trousers, think again Very Happy These processes are VASTLY expensive for both governments. They are also very, very difficult to pull off. Look at how many problems there are with Julian Assange's extradition, yet how serious his alleged crimes are. Britain has no love for him either so it's not like they have a reason (which governments often have) to roadblock extradition to Sweden.

    The WORST I can see happening is Canada issues a foreign national with a summons to appear in court. The national can safely ignore this unless he/she plans on traveling to Canada. Because Immigration officials at the ports of entry will most likely have that person in their system as a wanted fugitive from justice. Meaning, once the foreign national has his/her passport checked... that person's travel plans are going to change very quickly Very Happy

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    Re: my cadpat collection

    Post by panzerwerk on Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:20 pm

    We have gone over this in other threads and on other boards , I will ask you the same thing I ask all Canadians who make this claim SHOW ME THE LAW , you cant because it does not exist. show in black and white where it says it is illegal to own CADPAT .
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    Re: my cadpat collection

    Post by panzerwerk on Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:26 pm

    CANFORGEN 120/02 DSSPM 0089 300845Z OCT 02
    UNCLASSIFIED

    REFS: A. CANADIAN FORCES SUPPLY MANUAL (CFSM) A-LM-007-014-AG-001 CHAPTER 3 SECTION 2 PARAGRAPH 2
    B. CANADIAN FORCES SUPPLY MANUAL (CFSM) A-LM-007-014-AG-001 CHAPTER 28 ANNEX D APPENDIX 13
    C. NATIONAL DEFENCE ACT (NDA) PART III CODE OF SERVICE DISCIPLINE SECTION 116




    THE PURPOSE OF THIS MSG IS TO REMIND MEMBERS OF REGULATIONS WITH RESPECT TO ILLEGAL SALE OR DISPOSAL OF CROWN ASSETS.


    THE INTRODUCTION OF THE CANADIAN DISRUPTIVE PATTERN (CADPAT) HAS RESULTED IN A BLACK MARKET DEMAND FOR CAMOUFLAGE ITEMS WHEREBY CADPAT CLOTHING AND EQUIPMENT HAVE BECOME QUOTE HOT TICKET UNQUOTE COLLECTABLES.


    REF A DEFINES COMBAT CLOTHING AND EQUIPMENT AS A QUOTE PERSONAL ALLOTMENT UNQUOTE ACCOUNTED FOR ON AN INDIVIDUAL ACCOUNT (IA) AND ARE RETAINED BY INDIVIDUALS AS LONG AS THEY CONTINUE TO MEET THE ENTITLEMENT PARAMETERS OF THE APPLICABLE ENTITLEMENT GROUP CODE (EGC). COMBAT CLOTHING AND EQUIPMENT INCLUDING CADPAT ITEMS ARE CROWN ASSETS AND MUST RPT MUST BE SURRENDERED TO THE SUPPLY SYSTEM WHEN ENTITLEMENT NO LONGER EXISTS. SERVICEABLE CADPAT RPT CADPAT ITEMS WILL BE RETAINED AND RE-ISSUED WHILE ITEMS BEYOND ECONOMICAL REPAIR SHALL BE DESTROYED LOCALLY IAW REF B.


    NOTWITHSTANDING THE PENALTIES ASSOCIATED WITH UNAUTHORIZED SALE OR DISPOSAL OF COMBAT CLOTHING AND EQUIPMENT AS DETAILED AT REF C, PERSONNEL ARE ALSO REMINDED THAT THE INHERENT CAMOUFLAGE AND NEAR INFRA-RED (IR) CAPABILITY OF CADPAT MATERIAL OR OTHER ITEMS INCORPORATING STATE OF THE ART TECHNOLOGY FALLS UNDER FORCE PROTECTION. SUCH CAPABILITY IN THE WRONG OR ENEMY HANDS JEOPARDIZES THE SAFETY AND SECURITY OF CANADIAN TROOPS. CADPAT PATTERNS AND TECHNICAL DATA ARE PATENT AND COPYRIGHT PROTECTED. ADDITIONALLY, THE DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE (DND) HAS ACQUIRED THE TRADEMARK FOR EXCLUSIVE USE OF THE CADPAT ACRONYM. MEMBERS ARE ADVISED THAT CADPAT COMBAT CLOTHING AND EQUIPMENT IS STILL IN DELIVERY AND EVERY SET COUNTS.


    THE DISPOSAL OF COMBAT UNIFORMS AND EQUIPMENT RESTS WITH DND AND NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES WITH THE INDIVIDUAL MEMBER.

    Again , this is Canadian Law not U.S. law or International Law , and the party to be prosecuted would be the one who took it out of the supply chain .
    Also it is well known that some CADPAT is legally surplussed in Canada and sold in shops, just read the tons of threads about this on Canadian airsoft forums .
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    Re: my cadpat collection

    Post by panzerwerk on Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:36 pm

    Heres a thread about it as well

    CLICK HERE
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    Re: my cadpat collection

    Post by koalorka on Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:40 pm

    Thanks for posting, that's how I understand it as well.

    But the paragraph about the IR capabilities of CADPAT is pure legal propaganda. Contrary to many myths, CADPAT is not treated to some magical infra-red stealth potion once out of the factory, but the fabric is simply stained with appropriate dyes that provide the same contrasts and thus disruptive effect under infra-red as well as visible spectral bands. This technology is not proprietary or unique, it's been used in most NATO garments since the 1980s.
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    Re: my cadpat collection

    Post by Mk1rceme on Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:03 pm

    It helps to be registered with the gov-mint as an antiquarian. It doesn't give you free reign to collect anything you want, but it helps to get you an odd item or two.
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    Re: my cadpat collection

    Post by CollectinSteve on Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:33 pm

    Steve,

    We went over this in another thread. There is no law that says it's illegal to own CADPAT because there is no need for such a law since there is no legal way for it to transfer out of the Crown's possession in the first place. Ergo, if you have CADPAT it is stolen property and can be confiscated without compensation. The person possessing it can also be prosecuted, or fined, or whatever it is under Canadian law, for "possession of stolen goods". Knowing it is stolen or not is irrelevant. Best it might do is get you a break somewhere in the legal system.

    Let me be clear about this... it is absolutely illegal to possess CADPAT within Canada without the Crown giving explicit and undisputed permission (my poor got busted because the permission was disputed). The key part is "within Canada" since their laws have no jurisdiction outside of Canada except through the sorts of legal channels I outlined above. Which are as likely to apply to us collectors as being hit by a meteorite.

    So from my perspective I don't care what the laws are because they do not apply to me Very Happy

    BTW, if eBay is allowing CADPAT to be sold on its website it can face legal action in Canada because it has corporate interests based in Canada. Just like eBay can't allow Nazi symbols and certain text to show up on any computer in Germany looking at eBay. Not just German listings, but world wide listings. Which is apparently why eBay is cracking down on CADPAT stuff being sold out of Canada. I have some personal experience with this sort of thing relating to my business, which is why I know a thing or two about this stuff.

    Steve

    P.S. I always groan when I hear someone say "it's not illegal because I see people selling this stuff all the time". Wrong. Never confuse lax enforcement with legal activity. When I was younger I saw people buying, selling, and using pot "all the time" at home, public parks, and concerts. By this sort of flawed logic pot possession, sales, and consumption was legal.
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    Re: my cadpat collection

    Post by panzerwerk on Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:40 pm

    The key part is "within Canada" since their laws have no jurisdiction outside of Canada

    That was my point all along ......

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    Re: my cadpat collection

    Post by Spañiard on Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:55 pm

    It's True this Law, Applies in Canada! However I just checked, if the Law applies in "Both Countries" the Canadian government can have you extradited to face charges in Canada. The US has the same Law on the books, however not inforced.


    I really can't see the Canadian government extraditing someone in the US, Ect., for a set of Current Issue CADPAT in their possession, unless their out to make a point.


    In Montreal I know of 3 Army surplus Stores that regularly get checked by the MP's, since I know the owners of the Stores. Two of them were caught a few years back and will not sell or buy CF. Current Issue gear anymore.

    It's better to play safe then to be sorry later on. And those that have Canadian Current Issue gear should not post it ore even mention it on any open forum.

    Per Say, It's Like me going on facebook and making threats or harassing ect., someone in the US, do you think I can face Charges and be extradited to the US to face those charges???

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    Re: my cadpat collection

    Post by Tyler Flint on Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:17 pm

    We are beating a very complex but dead horse -.- When it comes to CADPAT, to each his own and amen to that.
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    Re: my cadpat collection

    Post by drmatz on Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:09 pm

    Well i think this is the same in a lot of other countries...

    I can tell about brazilian laws, since i know a little more.
    It's ilegal, to own any current issued military uniform. That doesn't mean you go to jail if they catch with one... First they can slap your wrist and confiscate your uniform, or they can let you go without doing anything, or they can try to prosecute you... As for police uniforms, those are really strict and they do carry jail time if you are caught wearing one. (due to large amounts of criminals trying to impersonate police officers to commit crimes).

    I believe all scandinavian countries have same, or similar laws, that's why is so hard to source some of their uniforms...
    Now people please don't be so paranoid, if this was such a big issue - i would probably be in very big trouble... Specially considering i have a public web album with more than 500 uniforms, with a few that are really, really restricted... Any law agency would spend more money, time and probably would get nowhere if they would try to persecute someone in a different country...

    How can anyone in canada actually file a law suit against me? not only that, how could they even try to confiscate my stuff? i found that impossible to happen... even if you live in the country where the uniform is prohibit it still would be a long shot before anyone would try to prosecute a collector for having a couple of uniforms...

    If you are a dealer, that is a very different story, if you are profiting from government issued material and some of those items might be sensible and could fall into the wrong hands, i can see they going after dealers, but not collectors...

    just my 2 cents...

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    Re: my cadpat collection

    Post by Mk1rceme on Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:32 pm

    I have several friends in the CF from grunts to high-end brass. All have told me some of the same points in this thread. The cadpat material does not have some magic anti-IR potion added to it as koalorka pointed out. That is said to make it "spooky" to the average civvie. Also, it is not illegal to own, but it is to sell. If you want to wear it in public, well then you just look strange to the average sheeple out there.

    I must admit that the boonie hats are primo head wear while fishing or hiking Very Happy but that's the extent that I go for wearing the stuff.
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    Re: my cadpat collection

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