Pattern 1959 Denison

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    kammo-man
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    Re: Pattern 1959 Denison

    Post by kammo-man on Tue May 01, 2012 1:55 pm

    Like I said the 66 is always like the one I sold.
    ALWAYS.
    66 pattern print .......you can spot it a mile away.

    Not that water print is special .

    owen

    Tommo
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    Re: Pattern 1959 Denison

    Post by Tommo on Wed May 02, 2012 11:23 am

    From what I have seen there are 4 Prints of '59 Pattern (excluding the civi/repro versions.

    First Print (Brush Stroke)
    Sinai or '66 as people call it
    Leaf Print (similar to the '72 version except more 'leafy' and the green is more greeny and soft.
    '72 Version (Bloody Sunday Pattern)

    If there is anymore feel free to add them to the list.

    koalorka
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    Re: Pattern 1959 Denison

    Post by koalorka on Wed May 02, 2012 12:27 pm

    Hmmm, I see Owen referring to the 66 as the Bloody Sunday pattern, and from the photos I've gathered, he is correct. The Paras in Ireland wore the very yellow "Sinai" smock at the time. I offer a correction:

    First print: 1959-early 60s, very gentle washed-out brushstrokes on a khaki background.



    Second print: Mustard-coloured leaf print with more solid, screen-printed green and brown shapes. Dates typically precede the 1966 Sinai so I estimate they were issued 1962/63-1966.



    Third print: Sinai/Bloody Sunday/66 pattern/bloodcake Cool/"banana", 1966, issued for what appears to be a brief period of maybe 1-2 years, I've yet to see one dated later than 1968.



    Fourth print: Most common, light tan colour background. Early 1970s until replaced by the DPM.



    The construction of the jacket remained unchanged throughout production.

    What do you think?

    kammo-man
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    Re: Pattern 1959 Denison

    Post by kammo-man on Wed May 02, 2012 1:23 pm

    Construction the same 100%.

    I have seen a Vietnamese made Denison made from the #1 print ........but is made to fit a minus size 1 .........its would fit a 10 year old boy , but again thats a whold different fish !

    owen

    Bury_Dave
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    Re: Pattern 1959 Denison

    Post by Bury_Dave on Wed May 02, 2012 1:33 pm

    The last issue Denisons seemed to have a darker brown base colour, the zips were crap and the material a tad thinner than your last photo, but essentially the same at first glance or to a casual observer.

    Dave

    Gulf91
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    Re: Pattern 1959 Denison

    Post by Gulf91 on Wed May 02, 2012 1:38 pm

    And while yes there appear to be at least 4 differnt "colour schemes" to these smocks lets not forget that they are all plain and simply 59 Pattern Smocks regardless Laughing Laughing Laughing and not go down the DPM route and "type" casting a garment due to its colours Wink

    koalorka
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    Re: Pattern 1959 Denison

    Post by koalorka on Wed May 02, 2012 2:33 pm

    Gulf91 wrote:And while yes there appear to be at least 4 differnt "colour schemes" to these smocks lets not forget that they are all plain and simply 59 Pattern Smocks regardless Laughing Laughing Laughing and not go down the DPM route and "type" casting a garment due to its colours Wink

    Essentially, you are correct. These are all just different contractor interpretations of the 1959 smock, parachutist, Denison specification.

    But we are savvy collectors, not soldiers or garment manufacturers interested exclusively in utility. Wink

    kammo-man
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    Re: Pattern 1959 Denison

    Post by kammo-man on Wed May 02, 2012 3:26 pm

    But one thing we are all .....................

    Collectors .

    owen

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    Re: Pattern 1959 Denison

    Post by Gulf91 on Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:48 am

    Heres a new one for me------


    edstorey
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    Denison Smocks

    Post by edstorey on Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:01 pm

    I agree with Gulf91 and not type cast the 1959 Pattern Denison Smock by the camouflage pattern variations. The question that to me seems obvious is why are so many different patterns showing up on thses smocks? Perhaps now is the time to drop the collector teminology and slang for these patterns and for someone to conduct a scholarly approach to finding out the true deatils of these garments. There would have been a paper trail on design specifications, manufacturing contracts and user trial reports that would tell the true background story to these smocks. Manufacturers of equipment just don't make up camoufalge patterns and apply them to military contracted garments, there has to be a reason why the patterns changed.

    Likewise, why is there an Admiralty Vocabulary label on a Denison Smock, perhaps for the Royal Marines? Again, a study of the primary source documents will provide the answer to this and other questions relating to the Denison Smock.

    I reside in Canada or I would be living at Kew Gardens to work on this project myself.

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    Re: Pattern 1959 Denison

    Post by Gulf91 on Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:29 pm

    edstorey wrote:I agree with Gulf91 and not type cast the 1959 Pattern Denison Smock by the camouflage pattern variations. The question that to me seems obvious is why are so many different patterns showing up on thses smocks? Perhaps now is the time to drop the collector teminology and slang for these patterns and for someone to conduct a scholarly approach to finding out the true deatils of these garments. There would have been a paper trail on design specifications, manufacturing contracts and user trial reports that would tell the true background story to these smocks. Manufacturers of equipment just don't make up camoufalge patterns and apply them to military contracted garments, there has to be a reason why the patterns changed.

    Likewise, why is there an Admiralty Vocabulary label on a Denison Smock, perhaps for the Royal Marines? Again, a study of the primary source documents will provide the answer to this and other questions relating to the Denison Smock.

    I reside in Canada or I would be living at Kew Gardens to work on this project myself.

    Excellent post Very Happy Very Happy

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    Re: Pattern 1959 Denison

    Post by Metradio on Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:09 pm

    L1A1 wrote:
    Regarding sizing -

    I have noticed that some 1959 pattern ( I know this is a misnomer ) smocks have the labels with size and a guide to height and chest size - ie "size 3 - height 5'9" to 6' and chest 42" ...........but then some have just "size 3"

    My question - did they mantain the same sizing throughout all the 1959 pattern ? Will one size 3 be the same size as another size 3 ?

    Desperately trying to find a nice one but dont want to get caught out with one too small like I did on the commercial one I was given as birthday gift and now having trouble selling !!

    Sorry if this reply might be a tad late..

    During the 1950's up till the late 60's the Army standardised most clothing sizes, if you fitted into a size 3 jacket all other top of body clothing would also be issued size 3.
    There were one or two problems with this, some items fitted when new but shrunk by up to 10% when hot washed, also your weight/size could fluctuate leading to outgrowing of clothing. But the biggest problem of all was the fact that kit most of the time was second hand re-issues, so it could have been shrunk/altered/tailored before you were issued it.
    From my memory Denisons were issued during training for parachute troops and as you can imagine lads failing during training was quite common, so the smock etc. ended up back in the stores for re-issue.
    Denison Smocks by their nature were made size for size baggier than most other smocks and jackets by at least one size, so it was quite common for lads to get the smock tailored to loose the bagginess by the unit tailor sewing in some pleats, these could be removed easily without damaging the smock if it needed to be returned. One good thing about the issued Denisons they shrink very little when washed.
    Most Army issue clothing was held at Depot/Training establishments and the chances of getting issued an item that had sat on a shelf for years or being second hand were quite high. If you were with a small unit with a small stores your chances of getting new/recently produced kit were a lot higher.

    Below is a rough guide to Combat Smock sizes that I found on the net, it does not equate exactly to Denison sizes but gives you a rough idea.

    "The British Army used 9 sizes for the 1953, 1960 and 1968 pattern combat smocks. Sizes 1, 2 and 3 were for a person up to height 5 ft 7 with 3 chest sizes, 34 to 36 inches (size 1) 37 to 39 inches (size 2) and 40 to 43 inches (size 3). Sizes 4 to 6 were for a person from 5 ft 7 up to 5 ft 10 with the same 3 chest sizes. The last three, 7, 8 and 9 were for 5 ft 10 up to 6 ft 2 with chest sizes 36 to 38 (size 7) 39 to 42 (size 8 ) and 43 to around 46 inches (size 9). After about 1968 NATO sizes were also used."

    Tommo
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    Re: Pattern 1959 Denison

    Post by Tommo on Wed May 08, 2013 5:55 pm

    Has anyone seen a last pattern made by BMC? Just been offered one.

    loski
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    Re: Pattern 1959 Denison

    Post by loski on Wed May 08, 2013 7:54 pm

    I havent can you get some photos for us

    Tommo
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    Re: Pattern 1959 Denison

    Post by Tommo on Thu May 09, 2013 6:09 am

    I'm collecting it at the weekend so I'll put some up.

    loski
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    Re: Pattern 1959 Denison

    Post by loski on Thu May 09, 2013 9:23 pm

    look forward to it

    Tommo
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    Re: Pattern 1959 Denison

    Post by Tommo on Sun May 12, 2013 6:26 pm

    Can anyone post pics of the '72 Pattern' Denison label? As this one I've got definitely says BMC.

    It was supposedly from an MC winners lot (won it in Korea), guy also had his mint unnissued Size 8 P60 DPM jacket and other bits.

    This Denison has:
    - Pen pocket on left sleave from same material
    - Internal lower bottom pocket (poachers pocket) with button holding it down
    - Waistband pulleys like later Para Smocks and other jackets.

    Will put pics up when I can.

    Tommo
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    Re: Pattern 1959 Denison

    Post by Tommo on Mon May 13, 2013 7:02 pm





    tug1970

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    Re: Pattern 1959 Denison

    Post by tug1970 on Mon May 20, 2013 5:17 am

    Hi fellas, finally at the printers and out soon. I won't bother writing all the background to the book as you can follow the link should you desire.

    DENISON by Bruce Wilson

    Brgds

    Tug

    koalorka
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    Re: Pattern 1959 Denison

    Post by koalorka on Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:01 pm

    tug1970 wrote:Hi fellas, finally at the printers and out soon. I won't bother writing all the background to the book as you can follow the link should you desire.

    DENISON by Bruce Wilson

    Brgds

    Tug

    Keep us advised when it becomes available. Looks like a well-researched resource.

    tug1970

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    Re: Pattern 1959 Denison

    Post by tug1970 on Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:31 pm

    Denison book, out on the streets. Completely sold out at Folkestone War & Peace Show, had to restock and they went as well!

    Really pleased with the reception, I knew it would appeal to the greater audience.

    If you need a copy best hurry up, it was printed in limited numbers. Go to Military Mode Publishing website where you will find the book.

    Brgds

    Tug Wilson

    koalorka
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    Re: Pattern 1959 Denison

    Post by koalorka on Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:38 pm

    Thanks for the update.

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