M1971 ABL field gear

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    Antarmike
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    Re: M1971 ABL field gear

    Post by Antarmike on Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:03 pm

    I believe this pouch to be Belgian although it does not exactly match anything I can find a photo of!  The catch looks like FNC magazine pouch catch??


    The pouch seems too deep top to Bottom for it to be for FN FAL magazine?  Is it perhaps FNC?
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    Re: M1971 ABL field gear

    Post by Wolverine on Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:14 pm

    It looks like a regular US GI 30-rd magazine pouch with the dividers cut out to make way for two FAL magazines. But these were indeed used by the Belgians over the years - it is discussed somewhere else on this thread as I recall.
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    Re: M1971 ABL field gear

    Post by Antarmike on Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:57 pm

    Thanks for the head up on that one.
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    Re: M1971 ABL field gear

    Post by Wolverine on Sat Dec 17, 2016 4:00 pm

    Getting back to the rucksack question, here are three types/patterns whose origins may predate the M1971 vinyl design. What is curious is that they have the snaphooks on the pack straps that were meant to be used with M1971. I can't explain this, if in fact these were being made before the 1970s.

    canvas, unissued:



    canvas, well used:




    nylon, lightly used:



    In the ABL museum in Brussels there was a figure in the paracommando exhibition gallery equipped with one of the canvas types, showing the 1960s timeframe as I recall. I have picture of it somewhere.
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    Re: M1971 ABL field gear

    Post by Wolverine on Sat Dec 17, 2016 4:04 pm

    Antarmike wrote:i am pretty sure Ali poles came with tents with arm holes, but I can't remember which of two types of pegs belongs to which tent.  I thinky the pegs foe the the armhole tent where bigger and more sophisticated than the simple , almost civilian pattern, pegs of the no arm hole tent.

    Would very much appreciate a picture sometime.  Thanks.

    Here is the complete M1971 shelter half kit - basically the same pattern as the earlier camouflage types, and the BW field grey and flecktarn types. The pegs and poles are of rather poor quality though:


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    Re: M1971 ABL field gear

    Post by Antarmike on Sat Dec 17, 2016 5:01 pm

    So this is all parts from Austrian half tents?

    This is all Belgian?

    and this is which?


    But the bag I pictured earlier is from Austrian pup tents?

    Oh well now the search is on for the correct pole bag (x2) and the Correct belt carried bag for the shelter/cape. (again x2) Anybody got any?
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    Re: M1971 ABL field gear

    Post by Wolverine on Sat Dec 17, 2016 5:11 pm

    Yes, the metal parts appear to be Austrian, and the wooden poles look like NVA.
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    Re: M1971 ABL field gear

    Post by Antarmike on Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:58 pm

    Don't the wooden NVA poles have a projecting lug on one end that goes into a boyonet type socket of the next pole/ Those i have simply push together but do not lock.
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    Re: M1971 ABL field gear

    Post by Wolverine on Sun Dec 18, 2016 1:11 am

    You might be right on that - I will have to look at my poles. They might also be Norwegian.
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    Re: M1971 ABL field gear

    Post by Antarmike on Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:14 pm

    M71 straps (I am guessing same purpose for either style)  but when and where are they used?

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    Re: M1971 ABL field gear

    Post by Wolverine on Sun Dec 18, 2016 5:27 pm

    These look to be improvised rather than general issue. I have never seen them before, but they are probably for fixing the ammunition pouches securely to the webbing suspenders when the rucksack is not worn.
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    Re: M1971 ABL field gear

    Post by Antarmike on Sun Dec 18, 2016 7:40 pm

    Wolverine wrote:These look to be improvised rather than general issue. I have never seen them before, but they are probably for fixing the ammunition pouches securely to the webbing suspenders when the rucksack is not worn.
    They came on assembled webbing sets. The pair with the small clips were just attaching FAL pouches to the Rings on the yoke, the pouches were extra items that just swung freely from the top.

    I can't remember how the wider clips were used. probably just the same, hanging FAL Pouches from the yoke with no attachment of these extra pouches made to the belt.
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    Re: M1971 ABL field gear

    Post by Wolverine on Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:23 pm

    I was comparing the French Model 55 TAP rucksack with the Belgian versions above. The canvas is more typical of the French weave (perhaps less tight than the Belgian), and the metal tips on the French packs are rounded and crimped in place, whereas on the Belgian ones, they are squared, with an open face rivet/eyelet holding them in place.

    Here is a Belgian paracommando figure showing the TAP rucksack ready to jump (Brussels).


    And also a couple of other views of the same exhibition area showing some Minervas.

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    Re: M1971 ABL field gear

    Post by Antarmike on Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:36 pm

    Hoping thatthis is an ABL item





    Please tell me what you think.

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    Re: M1971 ABL field gear

    Post by Gulf91 on Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:44 am

    Judging by the lack of makers marks etc looks the same colour as the civvy ones that were sold in the 90s(and possibly still being sold).

    Had one myself but sold it when I got a US one.
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    Re: M1971 ABL field gear

    Post by Wolverine on Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:33 pm

    It could well be a commercial model, but it is hard to say with these lights. They have been so widely copied and issued in various NATO armies, it is possible that the Belgian Army may have ordered a batch without any special markings. On the other hand, I have examples with British and Norwegian NSNs. The Canadian Army simply ordered them from US sources. In any case, it is probably fair to display it with your ABL kit.
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    Re: M1971 ABL field gear

    Post by Antarmike on Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:31 am

    Found these while looking for something else


    No doubts that these are anything other than ABL!
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    Re: M1971 ABL field gear

    Post by Antarmike on Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:17 pm

    Gulf91 wrote:Judging by the lack of makers marks etc looks the same colour as the civvy ones that were sold in the 90s(and possibly still being sold).

    Had one myself but sold it when I got a US one.

    Wolverine wrote:It could well be a commercial model, but it is hard to say with these lights. They have been so widely copied and issued in various NATO armies, it is possible that the Belgian Army may have ordered a batch without any special markings. On the other hand, I have examples with British and Norwegian NSNs. The Canadian Army simply ordered them from US sources. In any case, it is probably fair to display it with your ABL kit.

    The torch came from Soframa in France, it is third from left in this image. (it was pot luck which one was sent)




    You will see that the batch from which it was picked (pot luck which one I got) is one of three different types in the batch. All are clearly used (issued?) and some of them, not mine have an image in the circle that is blank on mine, so presumably we have different manufacturers. There is a variety of colours. All are the same basic pattern though.




    Soframa specialise in Belgian Surplus (among various others) . What is the general view of Soframa as a company? Should I doubt their word when they say these are genuine Ex ABL flashlights?

    I am still trying to guarantee the authenticity. Am I daft if I ignore the naysayers and trust the description and sourcing details that come from Soframa?  Or do I believe they have been scouring the second hand civilian market to find a number of similarly aged flashlamps, and are prepared to risk their reputation as passing them off as something they are not to make a few measly Euro?

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    Re: M1971 ABL field gear

    Post by Gulf91 on Wed Dec 28, 2016 3:15 pm

    Antarmike wrote:
    Gulf91 wrote:Judging by the lack of makers marks etc looks the same colour as the civvy ones that were sold in the 90s(and possibly still being sold).

    Had one myself but sold it when I got a US one.

    Wolverine wrote:It could well be a commercial model, but it is hard to say with these lights. They have been so widely copied and issued in various NATO armies, it is possible that the Belgian Army may have ordered a batch without any special markings. On the other hand, I have examples with British and Norwegian NSNs. The Canadian Army simply ordered them from US sources. In any case, it is probably fair to display it with your ABL kit.

    The torch came from Soframa in France, it is third from left in this image. (it was pot luck which one was sent)




    You will see that the batch from which it was picked (pot luck which one I got) s one of three different types in the batch. All are clearly used (issued?) and three of them, not mine have an image in the circle that is blank on mine, so presumably we have different manufacturers. There is a variety of colours. All are the same basic pattern though.




    Soframa specialise in Belgian Surplus (among various others) . What is the general view of Soframa as a company? Should I doubt their word when they say these are genuine Ex ABL flashlights?

    I am still trying to guarantee the authenticity. Am I daft if I ignore the naysayers and trust the description and sourcing details that come from Soframa?  Or do I believe they have been scouring the second hand civilian market to find a number of similarly aged flashlamps, and are prepared to risk their reputation as passing them off as something they are not to make a few measly Euro?

    You seem to have taken this to heart Mike for what is at most a £5 torch?

    All I was/am saying is that your torch in colour,details etc is EXACTLY the same as a brand new one I bought from a camping shop in the early 90s which was boxed and civvy.

    Im no authority on these and never claimed to be and yours could well be an ex Belgian one but if you do an Ebay UK search for TL 122,military torch,angle flashlight etc you will see plenty that look like yours,all stamped TL 122 but none have makers ID,country or anything else stamped on them and ALL of the civvy/camping ones come with the blue filter.
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    Re: M1971 ABL field gear

    Post by Antarmike on Wed Dec 28, 2016 3:53 pm

    I am just trying to put doubts to rest.  I fail to see why a large respectable company why are well established ex Military dealers with contacts within various countries Ex  military disposal departments should get it wrong.  Had this been a purchase from a private individual, then fraud or simple mistake would both be on the cards,  But it as not bought from an individual, it comes from a company with good contacts within the Belgian military disposal scene, and is one of a number of very similar lamps offered for sale as part of the same batch.

    For this lamp not to be ex ABL, then not only have Soframa been fooled by a single item, but by the looks of it they would have been fooled by a batch.  How did six civvy flashlights, all with similar wear and patina, end up being sold as genuine by a large reputable (presumably) company? Either they are attempting fraud, or they have been conned by their supplier who has been to a lot of trouble to assemble and age a number of new lamps in order to make a few Euro each?  Neither scenario seems very likely to me, but that is why I am asking for an opinion on Soframa, and asking whether they are known for passing on fake goods as genuine.   I do not want to get caught again even for £5, if this is the case.

    Re colour of the body, Four are the same colour as mine, two are different. Are you suggesting that the Soframa batch consists of two genuine and four copies? How did this come about?

    Re the blue filter, if they come with all the civvy ones why has someone removed all the colour filters except blue and added a clear Fresnel type lens?  

    None of the cheap modern lamps appear to have a clear Fresnel  lens.  How did that get into a modern copy? If it is a modern civvy lamp, why throw away some of the filters? Why source and add a Fresnel lens that does not appear to have come from a civvy copy? IMHO It makes more sense that it has had a useful military life and over that time filters have got lost or damaged and only two survived through to sale time.

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    Re: M1971 ABL field gear

    Post by Wolverine on Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:58 pm

    Could it be French military issue?
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    Re: M1971 ABL field gear

    Post by Antarmike on Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:23 pm

    Wolverine wrote:Could it be French military issue?
    I really do not know.  Soframa are a wholesale company, They do not sell retail. I bought through a large UK dealer who bought from Soframa,  Presumably what the UK dealer bought was a lot from a much larger consignment.  The UK day dealer is rechecking with Soframa the provenance of the items , but that will not be until Jan 4th at the very earliest.

    My gut feeling is that this is only a small part of a much larger release from the Belgian Military.  

    And if they are French it still begs the question, would they not have markings to indicate French origin / usage.

    My feeling is still they are genuine ABL.  The UK dealer has enough ABL stuff going through his hands that he must be regularly taking stock from Soframa, And certainly Soframa is a very big concern.  It would seem odd that Soframa would potentially buy hundreds of flashlights from a government disposal, then forget which government they had come from.  The bill of sale from Soframa to the UK dealer states they are Belgian, so if there is any error, it lies with Soframa, and that is why I question whether Soframa have any known history of making this sort of mistake.

    For the moment I continue to believe it is more likely they are Belgian, than a civvy item being passed of as what it is not.

    http://www.soframa.net/PBCatalog.asp?PBMInit=1
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    Re: M1971 ABL field gear

    Post by Antarmike on Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:28 am

    Antarmike wrote:...................................................

    Re the blue filter, if they come with all the civvy ones why has someone removed all the colour filters except blue and added a clear Fresnel type lens?  

    None of the cheap modern lamps appear to have a clear Fresnel  lens.  How did that get into a modern copy? If it is a modern civvy lamp, why throw away some of the filters? Why source and add a Fresnel lens that does not appear to have come from a civvy copy? IMHO It makes more sense that it has had a useful military life and over that time filters have got lost or damaged and only two survived through to sale time.



    I note this fresnel type lens appear to be identical to one in a known genuine A.B.B,L, torch.
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    Re: M1971 ABL field gear

    Post by Antarmike on Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:17 pm

    Latest additions to the 1971 era equipment,




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    Re: M1971 ABL field gear

    Post by flashesandovals on Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:51 am

    Wolverine wrote:Getting back to the rucksack question, here are three types/patterns whose origins may predate the M1971 vinyl design. What is curious is that they have the snaphooks on the pack straps that were meant to be used with M1971. I can't explain this, if in fact these were being made before the 1970s.

    canvas, unissued:



    canvas, well used:




    nylon, lightly used:



    In the ABL museum in Brussels there was a figure in the paracommando exhibition gallery equipped with one of the canvas types, showing the 1960s timeframe as I recall. I have picture of it somewhere.

    The second one belonged to Corporal Mervis, 22nd Company, 3 Para - the red dot identifies the company. Our company, 17Th Company, 3 Para used yellow.

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    Re: M1971 ABL field gear

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