Danish Pattern 37 - like Pouches

    Share
    avatar
    M55q
    Corporal
    Corporal

    Location : Scandinavia
    Registration date : 2017-04-20
    Number of posts : 27

    Re: Danish Pattern 37 - like Pouches

    Post by M55q on Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:55 am

    mikedenmark wrote:Shoulder flashes were only used for the battle dress, not for the M58 uniform.

    Pistol M1946 Highpower was issued with a light brown leather Holster. I have never seen a danish webbing holster for that.
    Lathi Pistol M40S was either issued with a swedish style brown or black leather holster. Occassionally with a tiny crown over HV on the front flap.
    For officers of the reserve, Lathi webbing holsters with compartments for 2 magazines were issued. Made by the company KitKat. Around 1955.

    Garand bayonets were either orig. short US, shortened long US or, the rare danish made bayonets. Danish made Garand bayonets were either marked 1954 or 1955 on the blade.

    Usually scabbard metal was parkerised or green. Black painted were used by the life guards.
    Webbing for the garand scabbard exist in several colours. Kakhi, green and white, to name some.

    Danish made boots are often marked at the top edge. Usually with a crown, and the year on either side: 19crown56. Fairly easy to find. Not all boots are so marked.

    The super rare plastic boot was introduced around 1990.  Broke down after a couple of months use. besides, the foot was basically in a plastic bag, meaning ecsessive sweating.
    Not a success, but a bid at making boots useable where biological or chemical agents had been used. My guess is they burned them. But, I have had one in my hand, they definitely existed. From the ancle and down, the whole boot was a plastic moulding. NOT flexible. STIFF. Small wonder they broke when used.

    In general, there were 2 different users of danish army gear: The army and the home defense.
    These had seperate regulations, and did not always buy the same equipment.
    That means weird stuff can be seen in photos where it is impossible to say if it is homedefense or army people.
    Like I never got the poncho bag while with the home defense. The item existed, but was not part of the basic set. That was basically army, unless you bought it privately second hand.

    Around 1980, the original stocks of british equipment were depleted, and replacements were made. Generally in a darker green colour and with alu metal.  Even later, the quality was getting worse, thinner straps, with heated ends without metal at all. The strap fabric became so thin, it started to cut in your shoulders when used. Bags were so thin as to be comparable with ordinary plastic bags.
    By then, the new strapping system was in planning and costs for the old parts were kept at a minimum.

    Hej Mike!
    Godt at se en anden fra Danmark her på stedet! (but let's keep in English)

    Home Guard - Regular Army and dates: Important distinctions
    As you correctly identified, there is a great deal of difference between the kit issued to Home Guard troops and regular army. Within the regular army, there is the distinction between regulars and conscripts to take into account as well.
    Home Guard = Hjemmeværn.
    Home Defense = Hjemmeforsvar.
    Another "problem" to keep in mind when discussing Danish webbing is what year one served. Before 1970, most of the equipment was rather "new" and was more or less issued as per regulations. The introduction of OD-green webbing from 1961 was a necessity because infrared cameras came into widespread use by the WAPA countries. From the 1970s and onwards, equipment was increasingly issued in a more haphazard fashion as dwindling stocks were not replenished.  

    Bayonets
    The "Danish" Garand bayonets were most likely made in Italy, like the Garands, and stamped with HTK / FKF on arrival.

    Webbing Holsters
    There exist two webbing holsters. As you made clear, there was a great deal of difference in equipment quality and quantity between the army and home guard. The Home Guard issued every bit of kit they could get their hands on, hence the Lathi being used - and leather holsters.
    The M/46 in army services had both a cotton and leather holster, as is evident from 1950s photos. Leather for the 'Sam-brown'-esque belt used by the officers, and cotton for other ranks and use in the field.

    The two webbing holsters can be seen below, a "new" produced in Denmark, and a altered British WWII holster:





    British Webbing
    As you told, dwindling stocks of old M/45-50, M/45-59, and British webbing meant that rubberised packs and "polymer" straps and fittings were introduced in the 1980s. However, it is a very stubborn rumour that ALL cotton webbing was British and of WWII vintage - it most certainly was not. The vintage webbing Denmark received in the late 1940s and early 1950s came from several countries (e.g. Canada, UK even Australia) and was transferred to the Home Guard as fast as possible when the home grown M/45-50 was introduced. From the early 60s most webbing used by the regular army was made either specifically for Denmark abroad (M.E.Co.), or was produced by Hvidt's company (Known as KitKat). This however changed again in the later stages of the cold war, as you already made clear.

    Hvidt's advertised for decades in military journals, that his company was able to supply every bit of webbing for the M/45-50 and later the M/45-59 webbing:


    Boots
    Not all boots were stamped the way you mentioned - it depends on the age. I have yet to determine when the practice of stamping a date enclosing a crown was introduced. But the oldest boots in my collection does not carry this stamp (from the late 40s - early 50s), and my best guess would be that it was introduced in the 1960-70s.

    I think the "rubber boots" you are referring to it the NBC boots? Large stocks of them were burned in the 2000s (as far as I remember), because the rubber did not last long under the storage conditions they were kept under. They were introduced together with "bamsedragten" (the NBC cover-all).

    mikedenmark
    Corporal
    Corporal

    Location : Denmark
    Registration date : 2017-12-10
    Number of posts : 12

    Re: Danish Pattern 37 - like Pouches

    Post by mikedenmark on Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:56 pm

    I didn´t know the green was made to work "against" infra red. No one told me that. Would have been an idea to get it then.

    Regarding the pistol holster, you only show 2 types, I know of at least 4 different types.
    One like the british modified you show here, but only with a compartment for the magazine.
    (even one more exist, UK holster, opened to accommodate the SIG P210, but no extra compartments at all. May not be official)

    The one to the left exist in a simplified version, with less details. And, of course, in 2 different colours.

    Then there is the last/newest I know of... Still the same type, but so simplified it had to be made larger for the pistol to go in.
    Very often in a dark green material, with a light greyish green edging. Oversized, bulky and ugly.

    I have seen boots marked 19crown53. Brown colour. But I cannot recall, if they were the ankle type or the extra long type ( for dispatchriders??)
    Ankle type would be for the Battledress.
    I just checked up on my old boots: They are marked 19,Crown over HMAK,87. So, I guess the brown boots must have had FKF, HTK or something like that, under the crown.
    Inside are holes and a number 5, to show width and size. A system I have never understood, but the boots came with a lot of measuring.

    My experience was with the homedefense. So, I was used to the old UK markings. But, I knew there were those weird very very nice backpacks of that certain light brown webbing, with so many extra features not found on our old types. Took me a long time to get one.
    ( Did not help the fact, that if you recieved one 24 hour food ration, and put it into your backpack, it was full. No room for even a pair of socks. Our solution was to eat everything immediately, except the can with the main course. Never figured out where it was intended to be carried...In the trouser pockets? Try marching a mile with a full tin can in a thigh pocket. bruised skin hurts like hell)

    Thank you for the info about Kitkat being Hvidt. I didn´t know that.
    KitKat also made a lot of stuff for the boy scouts in Denmark.

    The NBC boots, I was told, was intended for general issue. But probably the same. I just got it as: they crack in use.
    Your story probably right. I also heard they were destroyed. I saw a sample at the Tøjhusmuseum.

    I would like to see a photo of a webbing holster for the M1946 pistol. Never, ever, heard of it. Maybe they received UK holsterrs ??
    Was that after, or before, the leather holsters? Leather holsters are marked Crown HV, so they are pre 1952. And the P210 was introduced in 1950.
    The border guards also used the M1946, but they carried it in simple black leather holsters, modelled over the normal 7.65 police holster.

    michelwijnand
    Senior Sergeant
    Senior Sergeant

    Name : Michel Wijnand
    Age : 29
    Location : The Netherlands
    Registration date : 2016-11-09
    Number of posts : 352

    Re: Danish Pattern 37 - like Pouches

    Post by michelwijnand on Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:55 pm

    Finally found a real Danish M49 gasmask bag, so the one I had repro'd can go if anyone needs it.
    The original one came with a manual and eyeshields.






    I had the repro made with Danish materials, and the placing of some seams and the lower strap matches more with
    another I had photos of, so there's some variations in them. These both have metal tipped strapends, but they also
    appear with resin ends.






    mikedenmark
    Corporal
    Corporal

    Location : Denmark
    Registration date : 2017-12-10
    Number of posts : 12

    Re: Danish Pattern 37 - like Pouches

    Post by mikedenmark on Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:27 pm

    I have never seen this before. I wonder for what use it was made. The bag was not usually carried vertically. Maybe for medics????
    I will ask someone about that.

    michelwijnand
    Senior Sergeant
    Senior Sergeant

    Name : Michel Wijnand
    Age : 29
    Location : The Netherlands
    Registration date : 2016-11-09
    Number of posts : 352

    Re: Danish Pattern 37 - like Pouches

    Post by michelwijnand on Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:04 am

    Well apparently it was 1 of several ways to carry it




    michelwijnand
    Senior Sergeant
    Senior Sergeant

    Name : Michel Wijnand
    Age : 29
    Location : The Netherlands
    Registration date : 2016-11-09
    Number of posts : 352

    Re: Danish Pattern 37 - like Pouches

    Post by michelwijnand on Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:09 am

    In some of these photos there even seems to be a bag that also has buckles on the side




    avatar
    M55q
    Corporal
    Corporal

    Location : Scandinavia
    Registration date : 2017-04-20
    Number of posts : 27

    Re: Danish Pattern 37 - like Pouches

    Post by M55q on Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:40 am

    mikedenmark wrote:I have never seen this before. I wonder for what use it was made. The bag was not usually carried vertically. Maybe for medics????
    I will ask someone about that.


    Mike and Michel,

    According to the 'Vejledning i hærens opppakningssytem' from 1961 (equipment regulations){1}, there was three different versions of the gas mask bag. Note that they were all former British carriers for the light respirator. They were replaced by the M/61 gas mask bag in the 1960s, although the M/45B served for several decades in the Home Guard and elsewhere. They were more or less indestructible and easy to come by.

    1) Beredskabstaske M/45A: Altered to a vertical carry position. The C-hooks were turned around 180 degrees, the large aluminium rings were removed, and two webbing straps and buckles were added. The fitting manual from 1954 states{2}, that the army intended each soldier to carry two M/45A carriers. One for the gas mask and spare filter, goggles, etc. Another for the rain poncho / shelter half. I have yet to see a photo that indicates it was ever carried out in reality.




    2) Beredskabstaske M/45B: The unaltered British gas mask bag. According to the manual they were only used by the Home Guard, but photographic evidence does suggest otherwise.

    3)Beredskabstaske M/45-59: Because of the addition of the M/59 poncho carrier (Regnslagstaske M/59) the beredskabstaske had to be altered, as the belt was running out of space. The horizontal carry position was reintroduced - it also made more sense for the users = easier and faster to get out. The C-hooks and webbing straps were removed entirely and two 25 mm. buckles were added instead. The carrier was intended to be hung underneath the poncho carrier, as is evident in the photos already shown in this thread.






    ------------------------
    Sources:

    {1}: Hærkommandoen, Vejledning i Anvendelsen af Hærens Oppakningssytem. Cph., 1962, page: 39-43.

    {2}: (unknown), Uniform og Oppakning. For Danske Styrker til Lands I: De Vigtigste Bære- og Opspændingsregler. Cph., 1954, page: 7.
    avatar
    Wolverine
    Captain
    Captain

    Name : Andrew
    Location : Canada
    Registration date : 2014-01-18
    Number of posts : 992

    Re: Danish Pattern 37 - like Pouches

    Post by Wolverine on Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:50 pm

    Would we add to the list of respirator carrier variants the version that comes often with CF-marked masks, where the C-clips are removed, but no other fittings are added?

    michelwijnand
    Senior Sergeant
    Senior Sergeant

    Name : Michel Wijnand
    Age : 29
    Location : The Netherlands
    Registration date : 2016-11-09
    Number of posts : 352

    Re: Danish Pattern 37 - like Pouches

    Post by michelwijnand on Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:49 pm

    Great, thanks for clarifying the versions!
    avatar
    M55q
    Corporal
    Corporal

    Location : Scandinavia
    Registration date : 2017-04-20
    Number of posts : 27

    Re: Danish Pattern 37 - like Pouches

    Post by M55q on Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:11 pm

    Wolverine wrote:Would we add to the list of respirator carrier variants the version that comes often with CF-marked masks, where the C-clips are removed, but no other fittings are added?

    Yes we could.

    Although, I have yet to source CF pamphlets and fitting regulations,
    and for this very reason the official nomenclature evades me.


    Sponsored content

    Re: Danish Pattern 37 - like Pouches

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:38 pm