IACMC MILITARIA FORUM

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

    Belgian Smock? Yes or no?

    Antarmike
    Antarmike
    Senior Sergeant
    Senior Sergeant

    Name : Mike Fincher
    Age : 66
    Location : Lincolnshire United Kingdom
    Registration date : 2016-12-07
    Number of posts : 388

    Belgian Smock?  Yes or no? Empty Belgian Smock? Yes or no?

    Post by Antarmike Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:49 am

    A number of these listed on Fleabay by a UK trader as Belgian Smocks  (in a variety of sizes).

    Opinions sought as to what exactly they are, please. (There is no image on Fleabay of the makers tag)

    I note that the press studs to stow the beaver tail are external on the back, but if the tail were brought up on the outside, the corresponding poppers on the tail are put in the wrong way around?  So Beaver tail cannot clip up outside unless it is taken up past the poppers then folded over on itself?,  Belgian smocks nomally stow the beaver tail inside the smock, but the studs on the back are facing the wrong way are they not?

    Belgian Smock?  Yes or no? Smock1
    Belgian Smock?  Yes or no? Smock2

    TIA Mike
    kansimba
    kansimba
    Junior Sergeant
    Junior Sergeant

    Age : 52
    Location : belgium
    Registration date : 2017-04-23
    Number of posts : 133

    Belgian Smock?  Yes or no? Empty Re: Belgian Smock? Yes or no?

    Post by kansimba Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:19 pm

    hello

    green denison smock exist, a friend have one
    same materiel than a camouflaged

    I ask pictures of the label, this is what I receive, I really don't like, it seems that it ws add

    hughes

    Belgian Smock?  Yes or no? S-l16010
    Belgian Smock?  Yes or no? S-l16011




    Antarmike
    Antarmike
    Senior Sergeant
    Senior Sergeant

    Name : Mike Fincher
    Age : 66
    Location : Lincolnshire United Kingdom
    Registration date : 2016-12-07
    Number of posts : 388

    Belgian Smock?  Yes or no? Empty Re: Belgian Smock? Yes or no?

    Post by Antarmike Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:29 pm

    Did not RAKA embroider/ stitch the lettering on the tags? This looks like the tag is printed?
    fourtycoats
    fourtycoats
    Sergeant Major
    Sergeant Major

    Location : Ireland
    Registration date : 2010-01-13
    Number of posts : 426

    Belgian Smock?  Yes or no? Empty Re: Belgian Smock? Yes or no?

    Post by fourtycoats Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:32 pm

    I just posted about this smock on FB as follows:
    This is an interesting puzzle. You have to ask yourself, what was it made for? A fashion item? Unlikely as it is ugly, coarse and full of expensive to make detail, not necessary for it to sell as well as being made of expensive cotton. A repro? What is it a repro of? Repros are made to satisfy a demand for items that people want, that have a limited supply and are a lot cheaper than the original items. Not likely. An original Military/Government item. The most obvious conclusion. But what was it made for? A work item? A training item? A civil defense Item? My bet is this latter category.
    Antarmike
    Antarmike
    Senior Sergeant
    Senior Sergeant

    Name : Mike Fincher
    Age : 66
    Location : Lincolnshire United Kingdom
    Registration date : 2016-12-07
    Number of posts : 388

    Belgian Smock?  Yes or no? Empty Re: Belgian Smock? Yes or no?

    Post by Antarmike Wed Feb 10, 2021 8:47 pm

    fourtycoats wrote:I just posted about this smock on FB as follows:
    This is an interesting puzzle. You have to ask yourself, what was it made for? A fashion item? Unlikely as it is ugly, coarse and full of expensive to make detail, not necessary for it to sell as well as being made of expensive cotton. A repro? What is it a repro of? Repros are made to satisfy a demand for items that people want, that have a limited supply and are a lot cheaper than the original items. Not likely. An original Military/Government item. The most obvious conclusion. But what was it made for? A work item? A training item? A civil defense Item? My bet is this latter category.

    But the Label clearly says ABL so it is a Belgium Army smock on the face of it. Not Civil Defence, it is clearly marked Armee Belge/Belgisch Leger.

    It has a beaver tail to prevent the smock filling with air and inflating/ lifting up during a parachute jump.  The beaver tail keeps the smock inplace during the decent.

    Why would a beaver tail be fitted to anything other than a smock which someone is expected to wear when jumping from an aircraft?

    But the studs to secure the tail when not in use have been put facing to the outside, rather than facing inwards as is the case oin all other Belgium Para smocks.   The tail cannot be conveniently stowed when not in use.

    Two options I can think of,  It was made accidentally in the wrong material because someone overseeing the manufacture failed to read the specification and got it wrong.  But somehow the items were not destroyed. and have found therre way onto the market.

    Or, it is a trials item, a limited number were made, but not were ever issued either because of the Beaver tail error, or because when they were seen the decicion was made, "No we don't like them, forget that idea" , so the smock remains unknown until they have just emerged from storage.

    Why would you make a training version that differed from the service item?  No point whatsoever, training can be carried out in exactly the same garments as service operations are carried out in.

    I have only one other suggestion.  The smocks were produced to be worn by troops simulating "enemy troops" on exercises.

    In some exercise situations the enemy troops played by your own men have to be distinguishable visually from the "friendly" forces.  Solution?  friendly forces wear camouflaged smocks, "Enemy" forces are in Khaki smocks.?

    What I am struggling with is one smock has obviously seen waer and been laundered.  The label is frayed, and the material between the frayed edge, and the missing stitching friom when it was a full patch is clearly a different colour to the rest of the smock, because the material in this area has been protected while the rest of the smock was getting grubby.....
    bousquet123
    bousquet123
    Junior Sergeant
    Junior Sergeant

    Name : BOUSQUET
    Location : France
    Registration date : 2012-02-06
    Number of posts : 77

    Belgian Smock?  Yes or no? Empty Re: Belgian Smock? Yes or no?

    Post by bousquet123 Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:21 am

    Antarmike wrote:A number of these listed on Fleabay by a UK trader as Belgian Smocks  (in a variety of sizes).

    Opinions sought as to what exactly they are, please. (There is no image on Fleabay of the makers tag)

    I note that the press studs to stow the beaver tail are external on the back, but if the tail were brought up on the outside, the corresponding poppers on the tail are put in the wrong way around?  So Beaver tail cannot clip up outside unless it is taken up past the poppers then folded over on itself?,  Belgian smocks nomally stow the beaver tail inside the smock, but the studs on the back are facing the wrong way are they not?

    Belgian Smock?  Yes or no? Smock1
    Belgian Smock?  Yes or no? Smock2

    TIA Mike

    Hi Mike,

    can you send me the link please because I cannot find the announce pale

    Regards

    Didier
    ABLcollector50s60s
    ABLcollector50s60s
    Junior Sergeant
    Junior Sergeant

    Age : 17
    Location : Belgium
    Registration date : 2020-01-26
    Number of posts : 78

    Belgian Smock?  Yes or no? Empty Re: Belgian Smock? Yes or no?

    Post by ABLcollector50s60s Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:29 am

    Sorry, but that's just a FAKE one. Not belgian or paratrooper or something like that. No, not even for simulation of enemy troops. The label is modern. The label is made of a modern fabric, the letters and numbers are stamped, not woven, like the original ones. And the label is not even sew on nicely. And the most important proof that this is fake is that there is no source or picture that says that this is ever in use or ever adopted by the Belgian army. The belgian liebermunster and kore camo pattern is super rare and there is proof of that. So let this be the end of this discussion, because this is fake!

    milly66 likes this post

    Antarmike
    Antarmike
    Senior Sergeant
    Senior Sergeant

    Name : Mike Fincher
    Age : 66
    Location : Lincolnshire United Kingdom
    Registration date : 2016-12-07
    Number of posts : 388

    Belgian Smock?  Yes or no? Empty Re: Belgian Smock? Yes or no?

    Post by Antarmike Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:24 pm

    ABLcollector50s60s wrote:Sorry, but that's just a FAKE one. Not belgian or paratrooper or something like that. No, not even for simulation of enemy troops. The label is modern. The label is made of a modern fabric, the letters and numbers are stamped, not woven, like the original ones. And the label is not even sew on nicely.  And the most important proof that this is fake is that there is no source or picture that says that this is ever in use or ever adopted by the Belgian army. The belgian liebermunster and kore camo pattern is super rare and there is proof of that. So let this be the end of this discussion, because this is fake!

    That was my assesment also,  fantasy item,  no provenence whatsoever.

    I cannot decide on the label from the photo, but the fact that the poppers for the beaver tail are put in facing the wrong way ring alarm bells with me.  If it were possible to stow the tail away, it would be shown in the pictures,  and who is going to walk around all day with a tail flapping behind them....?

    Another sign of fakery is that where the label is, the material would be double thickness,  There is a lining on the inside that goes down from the collar to the vent slit across the back.

    On items I have here the label is stitched only to the inner lining.  The stitching does not go through the outer fabric of the garment.  But in this example the label is stitched through both the inner lining and the outer fabric.  I am guessing this is because the decision to add a label was made after the garment was fully sewn, and by then it was too difficult to get the base of the sewing machine between the two layers of fabric and up close to the collar,  so instead the faker took the easy route and sewed the label through both the inner and outer fabric. (Either that or there is actually no seperate lining in this smock, and that would be totally unusual)

    Sorry this garment shouts faked item to me.  But why when there is so much genuine Belgian clothing readily would you go faking?  Trying to create an ultra rare item I guess?

    Would the seller like to show a photo of the garment opened out so we can see the lining / internal construction?
    Antarmike
    Antarmike
    Senior Sergeant
    Senior Sergeant

    Name : Mike Fincher
    Age : 66
    Location : Lincolnshire United Kingdom
    Registration date : 2016-12-07
    Number of posts : 388

    Belgian Smock?  Yes or no? Empty Re: Belgian Smock? Yes or no?

    Post by Antarmike Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:12 pm

    bousquet123 wrote:
    Antarmike wrote:A number of these listed on Fleabay by a UK trader as Belgian Smocks  (in a variety of sizes).



    TIA Mike

    Hi Mike,

    can you send me the link please because I cannot find the announce pale

    Regards

    Didier

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313&_nkw=154318771738&_sacat=0
    Antarmike
    Antarmike
    Senior Sergeant
    Senior Sergeant

    Name : Mike Fincher
    Age : 66
    Location : Lincolnshire United Kingdom
    Registration date : 2016-12-07
    Number of posts : 388

    Belgian Smock?  Yes or no? Empty Re: Belgian Smock? Yes or no?

    Post by Antarmike Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:32 pm

    Why are the two cuffs not the same.  The garment hangs naturally and there is no obvious twist in the fabric of the arms.

    Yet the two tabs to alter the tightness of the cuff are in different places on the two sleeves.

    If the cuff adjustment on the right hand sleeve is clearly visible, why is there no sign of the same feature on the left hand cuff?

    I have never come across an item of military clothing where the cuff adjustment is not in a position where an adjutment cannot be made easily by the other hand.  You can't even see the cuff adjustment on the left hand sleeve.

    Is it at all conceivable that an item of military clothing would be so shoddily put together that the adjustments do not fall conveniently to hand to adjust, and are in a different place on each sleeve?

    Both cuffs seem to be the same hand?  Ie one is not a mirror of the other as it should be?

    The button does not even look the right pattern.

    Can the seller provide a photo that indicates which manufacturers name if any appears on the zipper pull tag?

    Sorry FAKE.

    Belgian Smock?  Yes or no? Smock1-crop


    Last edited by Antarmike on Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:52 pm; edited 2 times in total
    Antarmike
    Antarmike
    Senior Sergeant
    Senior Sergeant

    Name : Mike Fincher
    Age : 66
    Location : Lincolnshire United Kingdom
    Registration date : 2016-12-07
    Number of posts : 388

    Belgian Smock?  Yes or no? Empty Re: Belgian Smock? Yes or no?

    Post by Antarmike Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:41 pm

    Why does the stitching line up across the smock at all point apart from where the top of the pockets are, and the line of stitching just above the top pocket?

    Just a blind tailor or is how it is done in Taiwan?
    I won't waste my time asking why the caps on the press studs are chrome.....

    Belgian Smock?  Yes or no? Smock1-annoted
    fourtycoats
    fourtycoats
    Sergeant Major
    Sergeant Major

    Location : Ireland
    Registration date : 2010-01-13
    Number of posts : 426

    Belgian Smock?  Yes or no? Empty Re: Belgian Smock? Yes or no?

    Post by fourtycoats Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:06 am

    After much research into the Belgian Military Archives, I can confirm that this smock was part of a small contract ordered by the province of West-Vlaanderen to be issued to refuse collectors working near the Sea front. Through their Union, they organised a protest about their working conditions in the Winter when they were suffering from cold Testicles caused by the wind blowing up their usual working coats. Research by the University of Leuven(KU Leuven), showed that a similar problem had occurred with soldiers from Scottish Regiments who wore kilts. The solution in this case was to wear a special strap under the kilt which held the testicles close to the body to keep them warm. This was known as a Jock strap. The Belgian Military designers decided to use the strap from the Para smock to achieve the same aim. This also had the advantage of stopping the coat from being blown up. They chose the dark brown colour because it was good cammo against the dirt.
    Antarmike
    Antarmike
    Senior Sergeant
    Senior Sergeant

    Name : Mike Fincher
    Age : 66
    Location : Lincolnshire United Kingdom
    Registration date : 2016-12-07
    Number of posts : 388

    Belgian Smock?  Yes or no? Empty Re: Belgian Smock? Yes or no?

    Post by Antarmike Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:14 am

    fourtycoats wrote:After much research into the Belgian Military Archives, I can confirm that this smock was part of a small contract ordered by the province of West-Vlaanderen  to be issued to refuse collectors working near the Sea front. Through their Union, they organised a protest about their working conditions in the Winter when they were suffering from cold Testicles caused by the wind blowing up their usual working coats. Research by the University of Leuven(KU Leuven), showed that a similar problem had occurred with soldiers from Scottish Regiments who wore kilts. The solution in this case was to wear a special strap under the kilt which held the testicles close to the body to keep them warm. This was  known as a Jock strap. The Belgian Military designers decided to use the strap from the Para smock to achieve the same aim. This also had the advantage of stopping the coat from being blown up. They chose the dark brown colour because it was good cammo against the dirt.

    It is my suspicion that the shoulder epaulettes were for holding plastic refuse sacks, which they could pull out one by one as they did their rounds.  Did your research confirm this? or did the refuse collectors perhaps have a rank hierachy  and wore rank slides as per the millitary practice? lol!

    I note that the word jockstrap has purportedly been in use at least since 1891, a likely contraction of "jockey strap", as the garment was first designed for bicycle-riding messengers and deliverymen, or 'bike jockeys'. The Bike Jockey Strap was the first jockstrap manufactured in America in 1874.  Was this garment actually issued to the carabiniers-cyclistes?  lol!
    ABLcollector50s60s
    ABLcollector50s60s
    Junior Sergeant
    Junior Sergeant

    Age : 17
    Location : Belgium
    Registration date : 2020-01-26
    Number of posts : 78

    Belgian Smock?  Yes or no? Empty Re: Belgian Smock? Yes or no?

    Post by ABLcollector50s60s Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:24 am

    fourtycoats wrote:After much research into the Belgian Military Archives, I can confirm that this smock was part of a small contract ordered by the province of West-Vlaanderen  to be issued to refuse collectors working near the Sea front. Through their Union, they organised a protest about their working conditions in the Winter when they were suffering from cold Testicles caused by the wind blowing up their usual working coats. Research by the University of Leuven(KU Leuven), showed that a similar problem had occurred with soldiers from Scottish Regiments who wore kilts. The solution in this case was to wear a special strap under the kilt which held the testicles close to the body to keep them warm. This was  known as a Jock strap. The Belgian Military designers decided to use the strap from the Para smock to achieve the same aim. This also had the advantage of stopping the coat from being blown up. They chose the dark brown colour because it was good cammo against the dirt.

    very interesting. So civilian creation, but military-inspired. So some jerk thought to make a profit by putting fake markings in it. Ugh, I hate people like that.
    Antarmike
    Antarmike
    Senior Sergeant
    Senior Sergeant

    Name : Mike Fincher
    Age : 66
    Location : Lincolnshire United Kingdom
    Registration date : 2016-12-07
    Number of posts : 388

    Belgian Smock?  Yes or no? Empty Re: Belgian Smock? Yes or no?

    Post by Antarmike Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:47 am

    fourtycoats wrote:After much research into the Belgian Military Archives, I can confirm that this smock was part of a small contract ordered by the province of West-Vlaanderen  to be issued to refuse collectors working near the Sea front. Through their Union, they organised a protest about their working conditions in the Winter when they were suffering from cold Testicles caused by the wind blowing up their usual working coats. Research by the University of Leuven(KU Leuven), showed that a similar problem had occurred with soldiers from Scottish Regiments who wore kilts. The solution in this case was to wear a special strap under the kilt which held the testicles close to the body to keep them warm. This was  known as a Jock strap. The Belgian Military designers decided to use the strap from the Para smock to achieve the same aim. This also had the advantage of stopping the coat from being blown up. They chose the dark brown colour because it was good cammo against the dirt.

    The explanation you give moves from the sublime, to the ridiculous.

    You would have us believe this is a municipal order fro smocks for refuse collectors and you found the recordof the contract in Belgian Military Archives. How and why did a civilian order end up archived in military records?

    I have to presume your explanation is meant to be humerous satire, because it certainly does not work as an sensible honest answer.

    Please tell me what you wrote was meant in jest.....
    fourtycoats
    fourtycoats
    Sergeant Major
    Sergeant Major

    Location : Ireland
    Registration date : 2010-01-13
    Number of posts : 426

    Belgian Smock?  Yes or no? Empty Re: Belgian Smock? Yes or no?

    Post by fourtycoats Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:49 pm

    Never a truer word was spoken in jest. Just checking, are you the same person who posted No. 13 above?

    Sponsored content

    Belgian Smock?  Yes or no? Empty Re: Belgian Smock? Yes or no?

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:05 am