IACMC MILITARIA FORUM

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

5 posters

    German sniper clothing and concealment items

    michelwijnand
    michelwijnand
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant


    Name : Michel Wijnand
    Age : 34
    Location : The Netherlands
    Registration date : 2016-11-09
    Number of posts : 723

    German sniper clothing and concealment items Empty German sniper clothing and concealment items

    Post by michelwijnand Fri Jan 06, 2023 8:41 pm

    Time for some lesser seen German camo stuff.

    First a Scharrer smock uniform, this sniper type is different than the regular type in that it has more armpockets, hidden buttons on al lpocketflaps, sidepockets with clips, and a number of other nice details.
    There might also have been foam padding in the shoulders tha tmight have been removed, as there are 2 slits on the inside of the shoulders where it could have been taken out.

    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc07336
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc07335
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc07341
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc07338
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc07339
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc07337
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc07420
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc07419
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc07421
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc07424
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc07422
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc07431
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc07425
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc07426
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc07427
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc07430
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc07428
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc07429


    Then some 3 mesh 3D camo balaclavas, spring/summer, fall and snow camouflages, they have a flap that can be closed over the exposed face part, and elastic for whatever reason.

    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08010
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08011
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08012
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08014
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08015
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08013
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08016
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08017


    Then the same 3 camo types but as ponchos with attached hood, open sides that are just closed with 2 straps with snaps per side, the hoods are the same as the balaclavas.

    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08019
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08020
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08018
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08021
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08023
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08022
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08025
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08024
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08026
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08028
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08029
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08027
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08031
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08030
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08032
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08034
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08035
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08033


    Then a few ghillie suits, all made by Scharrer, the first one is from 2002, I didn't even know they existed that early but it's nice to have it in the same year as my smock trousers.
    Some materials on this early one ar different than the later ones, the paracord strings are a softer material, the 2 front buckles are of a different make and the straps with which they are sewn on are of a different material,
    there's also no horizontal seam across the center of the back, and it has a simpler tag without NSN and all that, somewhat similar to the top part of the label in the smock trousers.
    This one is also the most used out of the 3, it has holes here and there and it's shorter than the others as the lower part has just been ripped away in pieces it seems.

    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08060
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08059
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08036
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08039
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08041
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08040
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08042


    The 2nd one is a snowcamo ghillie, can't say I've seen a lot of those! It's from 2008, made with later rmaterials and has white strings and strips of white fabric attached as camouflage.

    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08056
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08055
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08043
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08046
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08047
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08048


    And the last one is from 2012 and has just a small amount of mostly bright colored jute attached, the darkgreen paracord bits are actually original Scharrer attached, same as the 2 above.

    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08057
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08058
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08049
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08054
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08053
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08052


    I believe there's also a newer type of smock uniform that was introduced sometime in the early 2010's with many similar features as found on the newer infantry clothing like the Kampfanzug Jacke Lang and Kampfhose,
    but I haven't been able to find this yet, no good photos of any either.

    Dom Hyde and TennoHeikaNate like this post

    Camonut314
    Camonut314
    Senior Sergeant
    Senior Sergeant


    Location : California
    Registration date : 2011-12-12
    Number of posts : 361

    German sniper clothing and concealment items Empty Re: German sniper clothing and concealment items

    Post by Camonut314 Fri Jan 06, 2023 9:30 pm

    Neat stuff! I especially like those 3D leafy ponchos. That looks like a very... engineered smock- funny because of all the discussion around the Swiss TAZ57 stuff and how ungainly it was; it seems there will still be select mission roles for a kit-carrying outer layer.
    TennoHeikaNate
    TennoHeikaNate
    Sergeant
    Sergeant


    Name : Nate
    Location : USA
    Registration date : 2013-10-16
    Number of posts : 215

    German sniper clothing and concealment items Empty Re: German sniper clothing and concealment items

    Post by TennoHeikaNate Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:14 pm

    Awesome finds! I've seen a single smock before but having the full uniform and all the ghille covers and ponchos is a rare ensemble! Do you know if there was a tropentarn version of that Scharrer uniform?
    michelwijnand
    michelwijnand
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant


    Name : Michel Wijnand
    Age : 34
    Location : The Netherlands
    Registration date : 2016-11-09
    Number of posts : 723

    German sniper clothing and concealment items Empty Re: German sniper clothing and concealment items

    Post by michelwijnand Sat Jan 07, 2023 6:58 pm

    Thanks!
    About Tropentarn, I've never seen a sniper uniform in that camo, in the few pics I have of snipers in deserts they just wear either the regular summer uniform or
    the Scharrer combatpants with the strap around the legs and whatever shirt isn't very well visible under their ghilliesuits.

    And apparently all the 3D stuff's material is made by JAC Camo Systems, and I think Scharrer just got contracted to make a cheaper cut out of the materials, but the
    material itself is very interesting and the pattern very intricate. I still have to find any photos of it in use though, but I at least know it is in use, as at least the snow poncho
    came from someone in active service, who I also asked for a spring/summer one, he sais him and others in his unit were still using them so they couldn't sell them.
    There's also even bigger nets in these 3 colors, I think he said 2X3 meter or so, while these smaller ones are about 150X200 when spread open. The bigger ones don't have
    a hole in the middle with a hood.

    And I have several normal non-sniper smocks too, this one has so much extra features, the others just seem simple and boring when compared, some real thought went into
    this, but it would be too cumbersome for regular infantry use, like you say it's just good for a very select task.


    Oh and I forgot about this, a simple camo net made by MFH that I got for free from one guy I bought most of the ponchos from, not issued, but these and similar ones can be
    seen in many photos in use to camouflage either guns or spotter scopes and tripods.

    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08062
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08061

    TennoHeikaNate likes this post

    michelwijnand
    michelwijnand
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant


    Name : Michel Wijnand
    Age : 34
    Location : The Netherlands
    Registration date : 2016-11-09
    Number of posts : 723

    German sniper clothing and concealment items Empty Re: German sniper clothing and concealment items

    Post by michelwijnand Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:00 pm

    Oh and I just found this, pants for the late type sniper suit from Wattana, which has a number of features that also appear on the 2012 model of combat uniforms.

    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08064
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08063
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08110
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08112
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08113
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08111
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08115
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08116
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08114
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08117
    CollectinSteve
    CollectinSteve
    ADMIN
    ADMIN


    Location : New England, US
    Registration date : 2009-03-08
    Number of posts : 6586

    German sniper clothing and concealment items Empty Re: German sniper clothing and concealment items

    Post by CollectinSteve Sat Jan 14, 2023 8:22 pm

    Awesome stuff! I have not seen all of the "sniper" camo systems. Really neat snow one! There's a guy who has the full Ghillie system on German eBay right now, but the price is too high IMHO. Congrats on having all of that.

    The so-called "KSK" 5FTD Troppentarn smock you have is one of the harder ones to get a hold of, for sure. These were widely issued in Afghanistan, not just KSK. There's 2 different cuts plus some very early 2002 variants. It seems they were made in small batches, so there's not all that many years of production on the labels. IIRC 2012 is the last year, but I am not 100% sure.

    For sure the current IdZ uniform replaces both the standard and the "KSK" type. I don't know what year the uniform was finally adopted, but 2012-2016 it underwent many changes. 2017 might have been the last year they experimented before going into large scale production.

    Under the old system (prior to 2014) the standard temperate uniform was one design, the tropical and desert versions were a second design. The special KSK uniforms, for whatever reason, had the standard and desert versions in one design, the tropical in a second design and in ripstop. IdZ appears to mirror the KSK concept, but now both desert and tropical are in ripstop cloth vs. temperate in smooth cloth.

    Which means we have this:

    5FTD Flecktarn (IdZ) - smooth cloth for temperate environments. I don't have pictures of the tags, but my set is in US Customs right now so I'll soon know Smile

    3FTD Tropentarn (idZ) - ripstop for desert environments, same cut as 5FTD Flecktarn. Cloth is 52% Aramid, 38% Viskose FR, 9% Polyester, 1% fiber for the ripstop grid. Has Permethrin

    5FTD Tropentarn (idZ) - ripstop for warm/green environments, modified 5FTD Flecktarn cut (suspenders). Cloth is 49% Aramid, 49% Viskose, and 2% "other fiber" (I presume elastic). Has Permethrin


    Your Wattana trousers appear to be standard issue 5FTD Troppentarn (IdZ). But I don't know much about the uniform variants since they are highly controlled, so I could be mistaken.

    Steve
    michelwijnand
    michelwijnand
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant


    Name : Michel Wijnand
    Age : 34
    Location : The Netherlands
    Registration date : 2016-11-09
    Number of posts : 723

    German sniper clothing and concealment items Empty Re: German sniper clothing and concealment items

    Post by michelwijnand Tue Jan 17, 2023 6:23 pm

    Thanks! Do you have a link for the ebay one? Now I'm curious.

    I think you're using the term Tropentarn wrong though, in different TL documents they refer to Tropen as a type of pants, like with the different fabrics as you say, but Tropentarn is actually just an unofficial name for the 3FTD pattern with green in it. Other than that there's just the 5FTD with the unofficial name Flecktarn and then the light 3FTD pattern that is officially named Wüstentarn.
    Here's a link to one for the SF cut pants, I sadly haven't been able to find any sniperstuff TL's yet.

    https://www.yumpu.com/de/document/read/29013616/tl-8415-0294-lh-bundeswehr

    As far as the 2010's uniforms go, I'm actually working on those sets too, and will post my stuff in a seperate thread here when I get enough parts.
    It's funny to me that there are 2 different cuts of combat clothing sets, 1 produced by Wahler and Scharrer (I believe Wahler is the designer of it), and another made by Hexonia, Blücher and again Scharrer.

    I believe the Wahler outer layer combat clothing set consists of just a Kampfjacke Kurz, Kampfjacke Lang and Kampfhose, while the Hexonia type also has an under armor shirt.

    Though the Wahler type seems to have been earlier made, as I've seen parts of this dated 2011 already, and of the Hexonia set I've seen some pieces that are labeled as Model 2012, others that don't have that on the label seem to be a later type with some changes.
    The Wahler sets seem to top out at the year 2017 though, while the other set is still in production, still weird that they were in parallel production for so long

    Dom Hyde likes this post

    CollectinSteve
    CollectinSteve
    ADMIN
    ADMIN


    Location : New England, US
    Registration date : 2009-03-08
    Number of posts : 6586

    German sniper clothing and concealment items Empty Re: German sniper clothing and concealment items

    Post by CollectinSteve Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:04 am

    michelwijnand wrote:Thanks! Do you have a link for the ebay one? Now I'm curious.

    Sure! It ended without a buyer:

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/125694062164?mkpid=0&emsid=e11304.m43.l3160&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=4e17c4eba1814e098b0d6450bee2e729&bu=43177736521&osub=-1%7E1&crd=20230114093620&segname=11304&nma=true&si=oHgZV27S0cayG0BdDIzXeMD1gEU%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

    I think you're using the term Tropentarn wrong though, in different TL documents they refer to Tropen as a type of pants, like with the different fabrics as you say, but Tropentarn is actually just an unofficial name for the 3FTD pattern with green in it. Other than that there's just the 5FTD with the unofficial name Flecktarn and then the light 3FTD pattern that is officially named Wüstentarn.

    They may have changed it more recently, but for a long time officially the 5FTD in desert cut referred to as "Tropen", which makes sense as it was issued for warm climates only. Here is a document from 2006 for the jacket/shirt:

    German sniper clothing and concealment items Screen10


    Here's a link to one for the SF cut pants, I sadly haven't been able to find any sniperstuff TL's yet.

    https://www.yumpu.com/de/document/read/29013616/tl-8415-0294-lh-bundeswehr

    Very nice! I'm downloading those for my archives ;-)

    As far as the 2010's uniforms go, I'm actually working on those sets too, and will post my stuff in a seperate thread here when I get enough parts.
    It's funny to me that there are 2 different cuts of combat clothing sets, 1 produced by Wahler and Scharrer (I believe Wahler is the designer of it), and another made by Hexonia, Blücher and again Scharrer.

    I don't know why there are two cuts. They are Germans, so I am sure they have a reason Wink

    I believe the Wahler outer layer combat clothing set consists of just a Kampfjacke Kurz, Kampfjacke Lang and Kampfhose, while the Hexonia type also has an under armor shirt.

    Though the Wahler type seems to have been earlier made, as I've seen parts of this dated 2011 already, and of the Hexonia set I've seen some pieces that are labeled as Model 2012, others that don't have that on the label seem to be a later type with some changes.
    The Wahler sets seem to top out at the year 2017 though, while the other set is still in production, still weird that they were in parallel production for so long

    The experimental stuff from 2011 through about 2016 is all over the place. In addition to the big three you mentioned, there's also Wattana. They did one of the original 2011 "Übung" uniforms and also more recent stuff.

    I have solid documentation of all items produces from 2011-2014 experimental uniforms. I don't have all the wet weather stuff, but other than that I have just about everything (including underwear!).

    I haven't done a detailed analysis of 2016-present as I don't have many pieces in hand yet and what I do have is somewhat confusing.

    Steve
    avatar
    Dom Hyde
    Corporal
    Corporal


    Age : 55
    Location : United Kingdom
    Registration date : 2009-02-16
    Number of posts : 10

    German sniper clothing and concealment items Empty Re: German sniper clothing and concealment items

    Post by Dom Hyde Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:44 am

    Fantastic to see all these items.

    I'm wondering whether the 2002 ghillie cape has been deliberately ripped, in order to break the straight edge at the bottom that would be noticeable when kneeling or standing.

    By the way, there's a difference between 'Tropen' and 'Tropentarn' which is where perhaps some of the confusion is originating. Tropen is like the British army's use of 'tropical' and seems to refer to the weight and/or the cut of the fabric, whilst Tropentarn is the camouflage pattern (i.e. 3 FTd).
    CollectinSteve
    CollectinSteve
    ADMIN
    ADMIN


    Location : New England, US
    Registration date : 2009-03-08
    Number of posts : 6586

    German sniper clothing and concealment items Empty Re: German sniper clothing and concealment items

    Post by CollectinSteve Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:16 pm

    Dom Hyde wrote:Fantastic to see all these items.

    I'm wondering whether the 2002 ghillie cape has been deliberately ripped, in order to break the straight edge at the bottom that would be noticeable when kneeling or standing.

    By the way, there's a difference between 'Tropen' and 'Tropentarn' which is where perhaps some of the confusion is originating. Tropen is like the British army's use of 'tropical' and seems to refer to the weight and/or the cut of the fabric, whilst Tropentarn is the camouflage pattern (i.e. 3 FTd).

    Thanks for pointing that out. You and Michael are, of course, correct. Late night when I posted that Smile

    Steve

    Dom Hyde likes this post

    michelwijnand
    michelwijnand
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant


    Name : Michel Wijnand
    Age : 34
    Location : The Netherlands
    Registration date : 2016-11-09
    Number of posts : 723

    German sniper clothing and concealment items Empty Re: German sniper clothing and concealment items

    Post by michelwijnand Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:58 pm

    Oh yeah good one, the British tropical name is actually a very good way to explain the difference in terme, I didn't think of that haha.

    And about the ghillie, I don't think it's ripped to change the outline, as it's actually supposed to be filled up with jute strings and other artifiacil camo materials and
    also vegatation to do just that.


    And I thought I'd might as well add this to this thread as well, eventhough this came from Dutch issue, the Germans also use this type of pack in different variations and colors.
    I've actually seen a green one that had a label inside which said it was military-contracted by Lindnerhof Taktik.
    Anyway, this is an Eberlestock G4 Operator pack, which has a seperate compartment for carrying a long rifle, with 2 cover parts of which the bottom one can be folded inwards
    and the top one can also be detached.

    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08138
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08139
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08137
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08142
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08140
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08141
    German sniper clothing and concealment items Dsc08143

    Dom Hyde likes this post


    Sponsored content


    German sniper clothing and concealment items Empty Re: German sniper clothing and concealment items

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:55 pm