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    BGS Sumpftarn parka - German size questions

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    Collectorpete
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    Post by Collectorpete Wed Mar 01, 2023 10:57 pm

    Hi and good to be part of this forum, I would appreciate if someone can give me a list of German sizes in U.K. inches or cms please or a link to a size chart, I have been after a BGS sumpftarn parka but unsure as to what the German size system of say 46, 48, 50, 52 etc. would equate to as regards chest size in U.K. terms, also any good U.K. shops to try and get one from [or in europe] would be of great, thanks for any help
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    Post by CollectinSteve Thu Mar 02, 2023 12:01 am

    The sizing that is in two digits (e.g. 46) is metric already, so you're all set there. However, the Germans have been uncharacteristically inconsistent with sizing. They also use another metric sizing which I've never bothered to figure out as sizing isn't all that important to me. This system often is three digits, but is not a doubling of the normal sizing. Then there is the Bundeswehr with their abstract sizing (there are conversion charts out there, thankfully).

    Note that generally speaking for winter uniforms you want at least one size larger than what you take for a summer uniform. A 48 jacket works for me, but a 48 parka is a bit tight when worn over anything significant.

    Steve

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    Post by Collectorpete Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:09 pm

    Thanks for the info Steve, great help
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    Post by CollectinSteve Sat Mar 04, 2023 7:18 pm

    Hopefully you are not a big guy. BGS items over size 50 are hard enough to find, but something in the 56 range is near impossible. Most common sizes are 46 and 48.

    Steve

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    Post by Collectorpete Sun Mar 19, 2023 2:20 pm

    Hi, well just found a nice Sumpftarn parka dated 1972 ?,hasnt been demilitarized, its a very big size GR 27, questions I have are what exactly is size GR 27 in modern UK/German sizes, what rank is the shoulderboards? and does anyone know how to get hold of the Bundesgrenzschutz & Eagle patches for the arm flap? plus do patches differ for different era, anyone with exact dimensions would help, thanks for any help


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    Last edited by Collectorpete on Sun Mar 19, 2023 2:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post by Collectorpete Sun Mar 19, 2023 2:21 pm

    size label & rank shoulderboards, thanksBGS Sumpftarn parka - German size questions 411
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    Post by CollectinSteve Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:06 pm

    Ooooo... you got a very nice one!  Congrats!

    I really don't know much about the various non-standard measurement systems that the BGS used.  I think that for this time period it is a 1/2 measurement, so 27 = 52.  You can test this theory by measuring from shoulder tip to shoulder tip.  If it comes out to be 27cm, then I think we have an answer Wink

    The rank is, I think, Grenztruppjäger.  They changed things a bit over time, but I'm pretty sure that is the correct name for the rank for this time period.  It is probably closest equivalent to a Private First Class.

    It's tough to know what the right one is until you have it in your hands and can hold it up against the stitch pattern on the uniform.  There's a lot of subtle variations, which means the later types might look the same but they are slightly the wrong size.  The arc is the worst offender of this! You most likely need the eagle badge in the upper left corner of the following pic, but none of the arcs that are there. That type

    BGS Sumpftarn parka - German size questions IMG_1898

    https://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/forum/ken-jasper-international-militaria-forums/bundesrepublik-deutschland-1949-present/252374-bgs-bundesgrenzschutz/page26#post4040812

    The problem with BGS badging is that they varied them a lot. It is complicated Smile Here's another source to see the different types:

    https://sharky-fourbees.blogspot.com/2011/04/bundesgrenzschutz-patches-bevo-style.html


    Making this more complicated is your parka likely wasn't manufactured with the arc badge, but had it sewn on soon after (the addition of the arc was 1972 IIRC).

    Best thing to do is measure the stitch holes for the arc from bottom left to bottom right corners.  Measure the top of the eagle badge and from the top most point to the bottom most point.  That gives you some information to start your hunt!  There used to be a lot of these swimming around on German eBay, not sure about now.  I'll lend you a hand once you have the measurements.

    Steve

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    Post by Collectorpete Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:22 pm

    Hi Steve, thank you very much for the information, its getting late over here so what I will do is have a good look at it tomorrow and let you know measurments etc., thanks again for your help,
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    Post by CollectinSteve Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:49 am

    I took a peak on German eBay and didn't see anything that looks right for you. At one point I had piles of proper badging but I also had piles of stuff without badging. You do the math Wink I recently relocated my spares and can't think of where they might be. I'll poke around and look for them.

    Steve

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    Post by Collectorpete Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:34 pm

    Hi Steve, I think I might have one on the way, I have measured the sleeve stitching and uploaded a photo with measurments so gives an idea of rough sizes for patches, also I measured from pit - pit on the parka and it comes in at 27" Inches so possibly Gr 27 relates to that ? or just coincidence who knows I have looked and still have no idea of German size system, thanks

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    Post by Kl1989 Wed Apr 05, 2023 1:59 pm

    CollectinSteve wrote:
    The rank is, I think, Grenztruppjäger.  They changed things a bit over time, but I'm pretty sure that is the correct name for the rank for this time period.  It is probably closest equivalent to a Private First Class.

    this rank was Grenzjäger after 1967, when they eliminated the solid green shoulderboards. At that time each enlisted rank above Grenzjäger then added an extra star. So Grenztruppjäger at this time was 1 star (no star before 1967). Then became Polizeihauptwachtmeister-Anwärter after the 1976 reforms to align the ranks with the Landespolizei, until PHWA switched to the old Wachtmeister type around 1983. Could be either Grenzjäger or PHWA, since these parkas were still in use in 80s.
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    Post by Collectorpete Thu Apr 27, 2023 10:15 pm

    Hi, finally received badges and I wonder if you can help me or advise please, the left arch is more curved than the right one and the left eagle is shorter in height, would any of them have been used on parkas or are some for other items of clothing or different years?
    I have enclosed a photo of the arm flap that looks like it has had badges that possibly have been moved or added during service in the BGS,
    I am having difficulty lining up the stitching aswell so if I can eliminate any badges that would not have been used would help,
    thanks

    BGS Sumpftarn parka - German size questions Img_1210
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    BGS Sumpftarn parka - German size questions Img_1212
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    Post by CollectinSteve Fri Apr 28, 2023 12:05 am

    The BGS uniform designers are sadists and therefore deliberately made many different eagle and arc badges over the years. If I ever met one of the people who made the specifications I would definitely have some angry words to say Wink

    Unfortunately, neither set is correct for what you need.

    The badges on the right are for the service shirt and other items, not likely camouflage jackets or parkas. Generally the arcs used on the parkas have a gentle curve and are fairly narrow. If you had a pile of the different types in your hands it would be the smallest of all the arc types. This is not what you have on the left or the right.

    The eagle badge might be OK for your parka. You can tell very easily by holding it up to the stitch holes. The outer set of holes should surround the badge very tightly. This is because all eagle badges were zig-zag stitched. There were several different eagle badges used in the early 1970s and that means different sizes too.

    The arc on the left is probably from the mid 1970s. I know I've seen it on the GSG-9 type jacket, but it could have been used on others. Here's a picture:

    BGS Sumpftarn parka - German size questions _57-410

    Notice the eagle is completely different. I'm, not 100% sure this is the original badging either.

    So, in conclusion, finding the right badging is difficult. When I get home I'll dig through my spares and see what I have left. At one point I had dozens, but over the years I have put them on items and resold them. So few BGS items come with badging still on them, so lots of replacements needed.

    Steve

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    Post by CollectinSteve Fri Apr 28, 2023 12:18 am

    Oh, and the arc for yours was likely added after original manufacturing. Unlike the eagle badge, it was always straight stitched on the parkas and jackets from what I remember.

    Steve

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    Post by Collectorpete Sat Apr 29, 2023 1:19 pm

    Hi Steve, yes if you can find the correct ones then please let me know, also if you have photos of the correct arm eagle & arch then that would be great, thanks again
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    Post by mylle Sat Apr 29, 2023 1:51 pm

    From the jacket:
    BGS Sumpftarn parka - German size questions Img_0236

    from the parka:
    BGS Sumpftarn parka - German size questions Dscn1910

    They added the arcs later on, thats why you see difference in coloration.
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    Post by CollectinSteve Sat Apr 29, 2023 5:09 pm

    The arcs were standard for the last few years' worth of production, but in that case the eagle badge is good match.

    There's basically 3 types of eagle badges:

    1. Eagle on Sumpftarn backing (which makes the whole badge larger)
    2. Eagle on HBT backing (same size as #1)
    3. Eagle without backing (obviously smaller than 1 or 2)

    #1 and #2 were applied in the 1960s and early 1970s. At some point they switched over to #3, probably around 1973. That's just a guess!

    A long time ago I purchased 10 flaps cut off of jackets and parkas. There was quite a variety of badges on them. Sadly, I did not think to take a picture of all of them before I removed the badges to repair uniforms. Dumb mistake Sad

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    Post by Kl1989 Sun Apr 30, 2023 6:40 pm

    arc was introduced in Feb. 1972, so a 1972 dated parka is on the edge of the timeframe for factory applied examples, depend how long it took for factories to start sewing them. Older were of course also updated like mentioned already.
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    Post by CollectinSteve Mon May 01, 2023 12:11 am

    I sorted through my arcs and found all the unique types.  7 in total, just from my spares!  I think there's at least one more of the small type.  There are also some slight variations that are possibly due to time period.

    The arcs break down into roughly 4 categories (numbered in the picture below):

    1.  Medium/Wide (two sizes noted)
    2.  Big/Narrow (two sizes noted)
    3.  Big/Wide (two sizes noted)
    4.  Small/Narrow - this is the type used on Sumpftarn uniforms

    BGS Sumpftarn parka - German size questions Dsc02711

    The maddening thing is that 1, 2, and 3 (maybe 4) come in slightly different lengths.  Significant enough to matter if you're making an exact match, but not enough to be able to see it by eye.  5mm or so difference.  The biggest problem is the Medium/Wide type (#1) because the arcs are the same width, therefore a slight difference in length means a very different shape of the arc itself.

    I have plenty of every variant except for the ones used on Sumpftarn.  I only have two and they are brand new condition.  They are also slightly stiffer and darker than the ones used during the 1970s, so not exactly appropriate for Sumpftarn.  Though I don't really know what they might have been used for.  The Einsatzanzug used from the late 1970s on use one of the other types of arcs.

    Steve

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    Post by Collectorpete Mon May 01, 2023 9:29 am

    CollectinSteve wrote:I sorted through my arcs and found all the unique types.  7 in total, just from my spares!  I think there's at least one more of the small type.  There are also some slight variations that are possibly due to time period.

    The arcs break down into roughly 4 categories (numbered in the picture below):

    1.  Medium/Wide (two sizes noted)
    2.  Big/Narrow (two sizes noted)
    3.  Big/Wide (two sizes noted)
    4.  Small/Narrow - this is the type used on Sumpftarn uniforms

    BGS Sumpftarn parka - German size questions Dsc02711

    The maddening thing is that 1, 2, and 3 (maybe 4) come in slightly different lengths.  Significant enough to matter if you're making an exact match, but not enough to be able to see it by eye.  5mm or so difference.  The biggest problem is the Medium/Wide type (#1) because the arcs are the same width, therefore a slight difference in length means a very different shape of the arc itself.

    I have plenty of every variant except for the ones used on Sumpftarn.  I only have two and they are brand new condition.  They are also slightly stiffer and darker than the ones used during the 1970s, so not exactly appropriate for Sumpftarn.  Though I don't really know what they might have been used for.  The Einsatzanzug used from the late 1970s on use one of the other types of arcs.

    Steve

    Thanks Steve, I will look for the one for the Parka with border then, what colour thread was used and also when it comes to the zig zag stitching did the stitch go through the shield on the very outside edge itself [so shield stitched in two places] or did stitch go past the outside of the shields border onto only the arm flap [so shield stitched in one place], hope this makes sense, thanks, Ian
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    Post by Collectorpete Thu May 18, 2023 3:08 pm

    Hi guys, just got hold of some eagles and arcs, photo 1 arc is narrower and fits better than number 2 [both eagles are the same size etc]. photo 2 arc is slightly wider, the green on both eagles and arcs are slightly different, which photo do you think looks ok? and does it really matter about colour difference of greens on the arcs and eagles?, thanks again

    BGS Sumpftarn parka - German size questions Img_1213
    BGS Sumpftarn parka - German size questions Img_1214
    BGS Sumpftarn parka - German size questions Img_1215

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