Alpenflage date stamps question

Hello all,
I’ve been slowly buying Swiss Alpenflage jackets searching for the earlier “Type A” jackets as mentioned in some of the earlier posts. Unfortunately, the earliest date that I’ve been able to find is 1963. The jacket dates are sporadically pictured on eBay. I was wondering if anyone had earlier 1957-1961 jackets or trousers that they’d be willing to showcase. It would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks!

-Patton

Probarts36 wrote:Hello all,
I’ve been slowly buying Swiss Alpenflage jackets searching for the earlier “Type A” jackets as mentioned in some of the earlier posts. Unfortunately, the earliest date that I’ve been able to find is 1963.  The jacket dates are sporadically pictured on eBay. I was wondering if anyone had earlier 1957-1961 jackets or trousers that they’d be willing to showcase. It would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks!

-Patton

Welcome!

There's not much difference in terms of the construction of the 1957 type and those that followed in the 1960s. Unfortunately, the easiest way to identify the earliest pieces is to have one in your hands. The smooth cotton cloth is hard to miss, but on pictures it's almost impossible to identify. Even when the Swiss flooded the world with these uniforms there weren't many of the smooth cotton type. I managed to get a set after pawing through piles of them in various surplus shops (those were the days!) and only ever found a backpack on eBay one time. I landed that backpack but it had standard cotton chest straps.

Mine is a box somewhere, so not accessible for now. GeneT's posts here on this topic are the best sources of info out there.

Steve

Probarts36 wrote:Hello all,
I’ve been slowly buying Swiss Alpenflage jackets searching for the earlier “Type A” jackets as mentioned in some of the earlier posts. Unfortunately, the earliest date that I’ve been able to find is 1963.  The jacket dates are sporadically pictured on eBay. I was wondering if anyone had earlier 1957-1961 jackets or trousers that they’d be willing to showcase. It would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks!

-Patton

It looks like you've read through the pinned Leibermuster thread, so there isn't a whole lot more to add. The pre-1962 garments must exist, as they are clearly seen in those linked videos and screen-captures, but they are also extremely uncommon, given that even Steve doesn't seem to have any, he who has at least one of everything.  

As thousands of these were sold through surplus channels over the decades, someone somewhere must have them without realizing what they are. I once tried to convince an employee at Major Surplus in LA to let me go through their warehouse inventory; he was not moved by my very reasonable pleading...  

Since you have a 1963, you already know what a 1962 should look like, as the main differences between the two are the fabric (plain-woven canvas vs twill) and the snap texture (smooth vs pebbled), as can be seen in the photo-comparisons below. You should be able to see these details if the listing photos are halfway decent.



Video evidence suggests the 1961 jacket looked nearly the same as the 1962 model from the outside, but likely didn't have internal trouser-suspension straps, as the trousers it was paired with had extra-wide suspender straps, but no obvious fastening points for jacket attachment.

The earlier still (experimental?) uniform with button- instead of snap-closure would be very easy to identify, as they looked completely different from the 1961 and later models, but I suspect finding them would be exceedingly difficult, though not impossible for someone like Steve or a few other collectors here, who seem to be able to get their hands on stuff that are inaccessible to mere mortals.

If you ever chance upon one of these unicorns, do share!  

The third jacket shown above is 1968-dated, but is made out of a very light plain-woven fabric (like something you'd find on a medium-weight shirt) that I have not seen before or since, though the elbow patches are standard twill, so the factory wasn't particular about making everything on a garment match. It's printed in the "C" pattern, while the other two are in the "A" pattern.

I'm also at the same roadblock, I grabbed some cheap sets years ago (later 60's and 70's dated) but did not begin searching for earlier dated sets until recently, and a 1963 dated set is also the earliest I've been able to find.
As Sanglier pointed out, the trousers have much wider suspenders with two buckles on each strap and no attaching straps sewn inside the jacket. It also seems like they have a rounded waist tab while the later ones were squared off.




It also seems the snaps/poppers on the right (as worn) side of the collar of the jacket are lined along the edge of the collar, whereas on my '63 dated example they are centered on the collar, going straight "upward" when the collar is worn down.




Other than the Dale film, Getty did have this neat Feb 9th, 1957 photo of the trial/experimental? model uniform being worn along with the new Stgw. 57.
It's unfortunately not super close up, but does show the left trouser leg has the leg cargo pocket rotated to the front and only closing with a single snap or button, and two stick grenade holder pockets on the side of the leg with snap retaining loops, kind of reminiscent of the PLA stick grenade retainers on their various bags/rigs.
Additionally, the man on the left looks like he may have some sort of hand covers, perhaps kind of like the hand covers with elastic palm bands on the JNA M68 MOL suits, or maybe integrated fold-out ones that are sewn inside the jacket cuffs?

Nice work finding those photos! It's interesting that the two men are wearing the M1918/55(?) bayonet, as a placeholder for the M1957 perhaps? One would think the matching bayonet should have been ready and tested at the same time as the rifle, or does this suggest the two products were launched at separate times?

I should also append my earlier reply to point out that smooth snaps can be found on some twill uniforms as well, not just the canvas ones, and should not be used as the sole indicator for identifying pre-1963 garments.

Awesome stuff! I have a couple of Swiss books sitting here. Hopefully I can find some time to look through them for early photos.

I've got to be honest that I've never looked that closely at the details. I have a smooth cotton set, but I don't remember what year. Now I'm curious to find out! I'll try and dig it out and find out. I'm pretty sure it is 1962.

I am absolutely sure that we've unknowing missed many of the smooth cotton items on eBay because it really requires a closeup picture or EXTREME knowledge of the minor details. Often the listings don't show either very well. I've always grumbled about this because I've probably missed an opportunity to buy a better backpack.

Steve

Hear, hear, Steve.

Plus, many eBay sellers (not just the ones who have "more than 10 available", who won't let you choose anyway) have been copy-pasting stock photos (or whatever they found online thru image searches) into their listings, because these things are so common now that they see nothing wrong with the practice, so you have no idea what the unit they are selling really looks like unless you asked for specific photos, yet it's generally not worth hassling these people because the real thing probably looks worse than what's in the stock photos.

It's rather like looking for a rare double-struck penny in a big jar of random pennies. Only a penny costs just a penny, whereas each of these garments costs a good many more pennies nowadays. Also, a jar of pennies doesn't take much room and is easily disposed of, not so if you had to buy 50 random sets of these heavy and bulky things to have a chance at getting what you are actually looking for.

So you must wait for someone who doesn't know what he actually has to decide to sell his on eBay for a reasonable price, and to take the right photos to show the details you are looking for, and to confirm your inquiry that his photos are of the actual item he is selling, before someone else snatches it up, who may not even know what he is getting.

It can be a long wait, but I suppose that has never stopped people from enjoying fishing and hunting.

I found two of my 1962 canvas items (a pair of trousers and a backpack) at random surplus stores during my travels. The others were eBay finds following the steps above. I have already given up on actively hunting for the earlier models, of which I had never even seen a photo until I joined this board, because I am getting too old and exhausted from the interminable wait, and scrolling through endless stock photos just looking for the (presumably more common) 1962 items.