90 Pattern?

Morning folks,

bought this DPM smock last weekend, my size, looks almost unworn.

Mark

Yep-unofficially(I believe) called 90 Pattern.

For everyday wear i love these smocks and trs as they are very practical,smart and hardwearing unlike the POXY ripstop S95 stuff that replaced them.

Only paid £9.99! need a example of the 60 pattern in dpm, then I have got a example each type, 60 olive to S2000.

Mark

chevpol wrote:Only paid £9.99! need a example of the 60 pattern in dpm, then I have got a example each type, 60 olive to S2000.

Mark

Great buy but expect to pay a fair bit more for a 60 Patt Dpm jacket-IF you can find one

Gulf91 wrote:

chevpol wrote:Only paid £9.99! need a example of the 60 pattern in dpm, then I have got a example each type, 60 olive to S2000.

Mark

Great buy but expect to pay a fair bit more for a 60 Patt Dpm jacket-IF you can find one

Yep, I saw one on ebay a while back, didnt bid on it, cant remember how much it went for tho!! It isnt a "I need it now!!!" item, I know I will get one in time (along with other uniforms I need!)

At the moment, my collecting policy is :-

If I like it, and it is cheap enough, I will get it!

Mark

chevpol wrote:

Gulf91 wrote:

chevpol wrote:Only paid £9.99! need a example of the 60 pattern in dpm, then I have got a example each type, 60 olive to S2000.

Mark

Great buy but expect to pay a fair bit more for a 60 Patt Dpm jacket-IF you can find one

Yep, I saw one on ebay a while back, didnt bid on it, cant remember how much it went for tho!! It isnt a "I need it now!!!" item, I know I will get one in time (along with other uniforms I need!)

At the moment, my collecting policy is :-

If I like it, and it is cheap enough, I will get it!

Mark

Very similar to me Mark but over the years ive been buying pretty much everything i saw that was cheap so have no rhyme or reasoning to my stuff at all these days

I think that once you start, you keep going out of sheer momentum!

My main sphere is British, followed now by South African, then European (would love a Swedish Splinter Pattern jacket) American, and I am just starting on Aussie!

Arrrgh, where will it end!!

Mark

Nice jacket Mark, I believe these were introduced around 86/87.

I think the Pattern 85 was introduced in 86/87 to replace the p69, I was issued the P69 when I joined up in 85 and managed to retain a set when we were issued P85 cos the new stuff was total sheite.

loski wrote:I think the Pattern 85 was introduced in 86/87 to replace the p69, I was issued the P69 when I joined up in 85 and managed to retain a set when we were issued P85 cos the new stuff was total sheite.

Hi Graham.

Good point mate, I think what I should have said was, my brain cells died in 86/87...

Easy Gee wrote:

loski wrote:I think the Pattern 85 was introduced in 86/87 to replace the p69, I was issued the P69 when I joined up in 85 and managed to retain a set when we were issued P85 cos the new stuff was total sheite.

Hi Graham.

Good point mate, I think what I should have said was, my brain cells died in 86/87...

Hi Gary
no probs we all have my funny 5 minutes still a gucci peice of kit

loski wrote:

Easy Gee wrote:

loski wrote:I think the Pattern 85 was introduced in 86/87 to replace the p69, I was issued the P69 when I joined up in 85 and managed to retain a set when we were issued P85 cos the new stuff was total sheite.

Hi Graham.

Good point mate, I think what I should have said was, my brain cells died in 86/87...

Hi Gary
no probs we all have my funny 5 minutes still a gucci peice of kit

Too true mate, too true

I do not think that this 90 Ptn. I recall the 90 Ptn as having the same, darker, DPM print as the later 85 Ptn smocks but with a much better design of pocket sewn in a 'box' shape.

There were no vertically zipped chest pockets on the 90 Ptn smocks.

This type of smock was issued in small numbers to my Battalion around 1993/4 when the few received were promptly blagged by the SNCO's. I recall some bragging about how this was the latest kit and that they were part of a special trial of the combat uniform of the future!!!

These smocks were distinctive due to the particular shade of DPM and the finish of cloth used which was a bit thicker than usual and which had a bit of a felt-like feel to it's surface.

I think this became type known as 94 Ptn but I do not know if this was ever an official designation as Soldier 95 replaced it all a year or so later.

I never saw any trousers to accompany these smocks although the heavier-weight S95 trousers often have the same felt-like feel to the cloth all be it in the darker S95 DPM finish.

I might have one in the attic and I will dig it out, if I can, over the next few days.

Interestingly I always knew these as 94 pattern previously to getting information from this forum that it was a 90 Pattern...now I'm not sure what the hell they are classed as

5645andym I would be keen to see what your's looks like Mate, for comparison

As far as I know, these are the official designations:

Pattern 1960 (first DPM uniform based on existing pattern)
Pattern 1968
Pattern 1984
Pattern 1994 (supposed to be general issue, but soldiers hated it so it was quickly abandoned)
Soldier 95 (introduced Canadian style buttons)
Soldier 2000
MTP (current issue)

There were production variations, especially with the S95, as well as specialized uniforms for tropical, para, sniper, winter, aircraft, etc.

I've never heard of "P90" before, so if someone has a source to point to that would be great. Otherwise the jacket pictured above should be thought of as Pattern 94 until proven otherwise. Because that's what all collectors I know of have called it since it first started appearing on the markets in the late 1990s.

Steve

5645andym wrote:I never saw any trousers to accompany these smocks although the heavier-weight S95 trousers often have the same felt-like feel to the cloth all be it in the darker S95 DPM finish.

Probably because containerloads were shipped to the US In fact, I am wearing a pair that was cut down into shorts. Resellers do that when either the lower legs are damaged and/or they are desperate to get rid of slow moving trousers.

The design is similar to both P84 and S95, which shouldn't be a surprise since it came inbetween the two. They are made from the same material as the smocks.

BTW, remember that the MoD apparently didn't care too much about color variations. Even as far back as P68 there are a wide variety of colorations within each category of uniform. However, IMHO there tends to be at least one "distinctive" coloration that is more-or-less representative of a particular style of uniform. P94, for example, is known for the "golden" variant.

Steve

There are/were trousers to match and i have seen jackets in some weird and wonderful colours depending on maker.

They should have stuck with it and not bothered with S95.

Finally had the chance to look upstairs and found this smock, issued to me around '92 or '93.



The label is too faded to photo clearly but reads:-

Smock Combat DPM
8115-99-180-5086
NATO size 7080/8505
Size 180/104
SL34B/0345

The jacket is made from the same sort of cloth as the 85 Pattern jackets but is sewn together to a much better level of quality. The biggest improvement is in the pockets. The main body of the pocket is sewn in a box shape.



The top flap of the pocket is sewn to an extension from the main body which ‘folds over’ when the flap is closed, sealing the pocket completely.



There are pen and FFD pockets on the sleeves just like the ’85 Pattern and the cuffs have Velcro closures although these are more substantial than the ’85 Velcro.



There are two large open toped pockets on the insides of smock front and the waist draw cords are in three parts tied at the ribs on each side of the body. There is a large single compartment‘poachers pocket’in the rear of the smock.



I recall that before this type was available anyone who had the choice would wear a ’68 Ptn Smock rather than an ’85 Ptn one. Once these Smocks arrived in stores a lot of people tried exchanging – as soon as there were any in stock – so ’85 Ptn disappeared quite quickly.

Most of those with well fitted ’68 Ptn didn’t bother exchanging because other than the slightly larger pockets there was not a lot of advantage to the newer design. I had a ’68 Ptn which I wore day to day and an ’85 as a ‘spare’ so arranged to exchange the '85 in due course (I think the pockets were encouraged to fall off the ’85!). I kept with the ’68 Ptn for day to day wear because it gave you that ‘Old Sweat’ look and I never carried much in the Smock pockets anyway, unless we were out on exercise, in which case I usually wore a privately purchased windproof smock .

So far as the ‘Official Designation’ of this type of smock is concerned I will defer to the experts as I did not work in Stores and so never saw any paperwork describing this kit!

All I can say is that we always referred to these as 1990 pattern as they were clearly very different to the proceeding 1985 pattern and first came out at the end of 1990/early 1991.

Hi I thougt this jacket is 85 pattern
Here are the basics for spotting a '85 pattern uniform.
1. The jacket has a twin lining of DPM material across the shoulders and has a Field dressing pocket on the right sleeve. 2. The jacket cuffs are fixed using Velcro and the jacket pockets are bellowed. 3. The trousers do not have the shell dressing pocket as on the earlier '68 pattern, but are twined lined with an Olive material down to the Knee. 4. The Label will only have a NATO sizing

source link

http://www.forces80.com/uniformv2.htm

hope it helps

Regards

octoberrust wrote:Hi I thougt this jacket is 85 pattern
Here are the basics for spotting a '85 pattern uniform.
1. The jacket has a twin lining of DPM material across the shoulders and has a Field dressing pocket on the right sleeve. 2. The jacket cuffs are fixed using Velcro and the jacket pockets are bellowed. 3. The trousers do not have the shell dressing pocket as on the earlier '68 pattern, but are twined lined with an Olive material down to the Knee. 4. The Label will only have a NATO sizing

source link

http://www.forces80.com/uniformv2.htm

hope it helps

Regards

I wouldnt use that Forces 80 site as a reference point as it is littered with mistakes.

Gulf91 wrote:

I wouldnt use that Forces 80 site as a reference point as it is littered with mistakes.

I know a couple of folks from the Forces 80 group and I am sure they would be grateful of someone correcting any mistakes regarding the info on the website.

They seem pretty keen on trying to use the site as an accurate reference so if you want drop me a note with you thoughts and I will pass it onto them...

5645andym thanks for showing your Jacket, that is an very interesting varient, looks like an 85 but as you pointed out in your pics, there some differences in the pocket detail...very cool.

Eaglehurst I have used Forces 80 too for ref purposes, great site , and one of only a few in the UK ( that I'm aware of) that actually show some bloody good ref pics of DPM, wish there was a dedicated DPM ref site, that clearly demonstrated all the varieties ...hmmm, there's a thought ,could be a future project

I admire what Forces 80 stand for as a group but their DPM section is littered with inaccuracies and again this obsession with classing things by patterns that just dont exist.

88 Pattern label.-describing a 60 patt label.

1986 Pattern Para Smock-no such thing exists.

1968 Pattern Para Smock-as above.

'68 pattern Windproof-as above.

'84 pattern Windproof-as above.

The Mark 2 windproof is also referred to as the '84 or '85 pattern again due to its usage of the '84 pattern DPM colour variation.-Is it??? Never heard that myself.

Early Pattern or '68 Pattern

SMOCK, MAN'S, WATERPROOF (DP)-no such item exists.

Late pattern or '84 pattern-as above.

Probably more but i had to give up at this stage and couldnt go any further.

Might be me just being pedantic about the above issues but when people read this stuff they tend to think its gospel hence so many collectors spouting on about pattern this or pattern that to describe items that are incorrectly described-should start a new word called patternitis to describe collectors of DPM with an obsession to categorise everything by the type and colour of its DPM

Gulf91 wrote:I admire what Forces 80 stand for as a group but their DPM section is littered with inaccuracies and again this obsession with classing things by patterns that just dont exist.

88 Pattern label.-describing a 60 patt label.

1986 Pattern Para Smock-no such thing exists.

1968 Pattern Para Smock-as above.

'68 pattern Windproof-as above.

'84 pattern Windproof-as above.

The Mark 2 windproof is also referred to as the '84 or '85 pattern again due to its usage of the '84 pattern DPM colour variation.-Is it??? Never heard that myself.

Early Pattern or '68 Pattern

SMOCK, MAN'S, WATERPROOF (DP)-no such item exists.

Late pattern or '84 pattern-as above.

Probably more but i had to give up at this stage and couldnt go any further.

Might be me just being pedantic about the above issues but when people read this stuff they tend to think its gospel hence so many collectors spouting on about pattern this or pattern that to describe items that are incorrectly described-should start a new word called patternitis to describe collectors of DPM with an obsession to categorise everything by the type and colour of its DPM

I'm with you on the inaccuracies Rich, and to be fair this would be very confusing to someone getting into this hobby..but I like the format, and clear pictoral guides ( perhaps not the inaccuracies and all).

I am not into reinacting, and never will be, but the ethos behind what these guys's have achieved is cool, perhaps as Eaglehurst suggested, he will contact the guys there, and assist with the corrections/classifications of the DPM.

At the end of the day, different collectors have a different view on the same piece of DPM, a work mate and ex squaddie classes one of my 85's as 87???, maybe it's all to do with when this kit was issued from their point of view...what we need is an ex-stores guy, to join here...that would be an interesting perspective to share here.

Personally I find the debate's on DPM classificataion quite amusing/bemusing, so all this is great really

Easy Gee wrote:

Gulf91 wrote:I admire what Forces 80 stand for as a group but their DPM section is littered with inaccuracies and again this obsession with classing things by patterns that just dont exist.

88 Pattern label.-describing a 60 patt label.

1986 Pattern Para Smock-no such thing exists.

1968 Pattern Para Smock-as above.

'68 pattern Windproof-as above.

'84 pattern Windproof-as above.

The Mark 2 windproof is also referred to as the '84 or '85 pattern again due to its usage of the '84 pattern DPM colour variation.-Is it??? Never heard that myself.

Early Pattern or '68 Pattern

SMOCK, MAN'S, WATERPROOF (DP)-no such item exists.

Late pattern or '84 pattern-as above.

Probably more but i had to give up at this stage and couldnt go any further.

Might be me just being pedantic about the above issues but when people read this stuff they tend to think its gospel hence so many collectors spouting on about pattern this or pattern that to describe items that are incorrectly described-should start a new word called patternitis to describe collectors of DPM with an obsession to categorise everything by the type and colour of its DPM

I'm with you on the inaccuracies Rich, and to be fair this would be very confusing to someone getting into this hobby..but I like the format, and clear pictoral guides ( perhaps not the inaccuracies and all).

I am not into reinacting, and never will be, but the ethos behind what these guys's have achieved is cool, perhaps as Eaglehurst suggested, he will contact the guys there, and assist with the corrections/classifications of the DPM.

At the end of the day, different collectors have a different view on the same piece of DPM, a work mate and ex squaddie classes one of my 85's as 87???, maybe it's all to do with when this kit was issued from their point of view...what we need is an ex-stores guy, to join here...that would be an interesting perspective to share here.

Personally I find the debate's on DPM classificataion quite amusing/bemusing, so all this is great really

Yep,Forces 80 as a whole do a cracking job and the guide is quite good but its just my own personal gripe when people "Pattern" a DPM item by the colour or type of material-its WRONG,WRONG yet some people will argue with you till you are blue in the face that its correct.



I keep banging on about this but with some people they just wont take it onboard so from now on i will shut up and let people keep believing what the hell they like regarding DPM