KSK and standard Bundeswehr shirts

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    Bury_Dave
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    KSK and standard Bundeswehr shirts

    Post by Bury_Dave on Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:52 pm

    Here's a couple of recent acquisitions - a nice KSK shirt in a large reg size. 175-185 tall and 100 - 105 chest I think but the sizing labelling is different to normal.It fits me like the size 8 shirt below. UK 170 - 180 and 104-112 chest.









    And a standard shirt. This is mint and unwashed and unworn.









    I've only recently taken an interest in flecktarn stuff and was surprised by the little details like mesh under the armpits.

    I've just won a mint KSK smock and trousers both made by Scharrer. I hope they are issue !! Once i've got them, I'll post photos.

    Dave
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    CollectinSteve
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    Re: KSK and standard Bundeswehr shirts

    Post by CollectinSteve on Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:53 am

    Cool stuff! There's a couple of different variants from 2002-2010. But I think if you have anything after 2006 it's the same as anything that comes later.

    The jacket you have is standard issue Troppentarn. It has the same features as the 3-Farbe (3 color desert) Flecktarn. Cloth is also different which is why the colors look a bit washed out. Standard 5-Farbe Flecktarn does not have mesh armpits and has a zipper.

    Steve
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    Bury_Dave
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    Re: KSK and standard Bundeswehr shirts

    Post by Bury_Dave on Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:16 am

    Now you really have confused me Steve !

    They are both jackets and not shirts ?

    I count 5 colours on both the KSK jacket/shirt and the Troppentarn one. Just that the percentages of each colour are different. Troppentarn is summer use or tropical use ?

    Somebody needs to do a proper Flecktarn thread on here with all the variations along with comparisons coz I'm well confused !

    Steve, any chance of some good photos of your KSK smock please ? Including close-ups and the label.

    The trouble with the bragging rights threads is that loads of people just post a couple of pics and dont ever bother following it up with more pics, detail and explanations in the appropriate sections of the forum. Frustrates the crap out of me !! Wink
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    CollectinSteve
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    Re: KSK and standard Bundeswehr shirts

    Post by CollectinSteve on Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:35 am

    Terminology on these things is always difficult. Some countries call them "shirts", others "jackets". The German word is nearly the same as English, and they call them "Jacke". Americans call the top part of a standard uniform "jacket", winter garments "coat" or "parka" (depending on style).

    Using common British terms, this is a "shirt" and there is also a "smock".

    I'll get some photos of my KSK items up soon.

    Steve
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    Albano
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    Re: KSK and standard Bundeswehr shirts

    Post by Albano on Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:33 pm

    Bury_Dave wrote:
    ...
    I count 5 colours on both the KSK jacket/shirt and the Troppentarn one. Just that the percentages of each colour are different. Troppentarn is summer use or tropical use ?
    ...

    Troppentarn is a light weight variant of the normal 5-farb uniform but for tropical use. The name is misgiven. Should be called Troppenbekleidung or something as "tarn" means "camo".

    As i know off there are only two types of camo in the Bundeswehr: the Flecktarn 5-farb (5 colors) and the Flecktarn 3-farb (usualy identified as Flecktarn desert, Fleckdesert or Wüstentarn)

    Best regards

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    Bury_Dave
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    Re: KSK and standard Bundeswehr shirts

    Post by Bury_Dave on Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:37 pm

    Thanks for that Albano, much appreciated.

    I suppose it's like the French 'francais' and 'outré mere' versions of their FELIN camos.

    And some detail differences too like the mesh underarms, no front zipper.

    I presume all wusterntarn is lightweight material or are there two weights for that too ?

    Also, are all
    KSK smocks the lightweight or heavy material and has rips top been used for any issue clothing ?

    Sorry, lots of questions from an ignorant Brit Embarassed
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    Re: KSK and standard Bundeswehr shirts

    Post by CollectinSteve on Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:54 am

    The naming conventions of modern BW patterns is somewhat confusing. That's because the official names aren't always what people use. Here are the official names:

    5 Farbe-Tarndruck
    3 Farbe-Tarndruck
    Wüstentarndruck

    The latter is the special desert camouflage briefly used by special forces, while the 3 Farbe-Tardruck is the type in normal use. I've often seen Germans refer to them as "5 FT" or "5 F-Tarndruck".

    "Tropen" is used as a qualifier for items made for tropical use, but often you see it unofficially referenced.

    Some confusion comes in with desert, where people generally call it "Wüstentarn", but that's not the official name. Instead, it is very close to the other pattern which is not what people have in mind.

    The BW hasn't used ripstop in any official capacity yet. I don't even think the stuff being produced in the last year or two is in ripstop. If you see something in ripstop, make sure you can see the tags. Maybe there is something out there with LHBW tags on it, but I don't think so.

    Steve
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    Re: KSK and standard Bundeswehr shirts

    Post by Bury_Dave on Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:59 am

    Thanks for that explanation Steve. Between you and Albano I have a much better grip on definitions and types and names - both official and unofficial. Almost (but not quite) the same problem with collectors calling Denisons "Sinai" or German sumpfmuster "tan and water"..... etc Very Happy

    My education continues Smile

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    Albano
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    Re: KSK and standard Bundeswehr shirts

    Post by Albano on Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:02 pm

    CollectinSteve wrote:
    ...
    Wüstentarndruck

    The latter is the special desert camouflage briefly used by special forces, while the 3 Farbe-Tardruck is the type in normal use. I've often seen Germans refer to them as "5 FT" or "5 F-Tarndruck".
    ...

    Theres another pattern!? Always leeeearning... Smile

    Can you put some photos of it?

    Best regards

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    Gemini
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    Re: KSK and standard Bundeswehr shirts

    Post by Gemini on Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:17 pm

    Oh this is nice.I need to pick up one of these.
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    Re: KSK and standard Bundeswehr shirts

    Post by CollectinSteve on Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:28 pm

    Here's a pic to start off with, and the link to an old thread where I posted some more info.

    Note that the 2002 type (and maybe 2003 and 2004?) have solid color Cordura reinforcements. After that they started using matching camouflage.

    Steve



    http://iacmc.forumotion.com/t4918-dso-and-private-purchase-flecktarn
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    Bury_Dave
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    Re: KSK and standard Bundeswehr shirts

    Post by Bury_Dave on Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:58 am

    Oh, I LIKE that smock !!! Smile Now I think I've seen that elsewhere and assumed it was either from a nations i didn't know of or a commercial smock. I have always thought that Sabre were like Tac-Gear or Kohler - used by servicemen but not issue.

    I gotta get me one of those !

    Thanks for posting it Steve Smile

    Dave
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    Albano
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    Re: KSK and standard Bundeswehr shirts

    Post by Albano on Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:09 am

    So that's the one... I already knew it but thought was commercial as it was one of Leo Kohler's products (not that they don't make BW stuff though).

    Dave, 125£ at Flecktarn.co.uk Wink

    Thnaks for the info Steve Smile

    Best regards

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    Bury_Dave
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    Re: KSK and standard Bundeswehr shirts

    Post by Bury_Dave on Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:57 am

    So Sabre are the same as Kohler then : they make issue kit and also sell the same kit, re-labelled, to the public ?

    Thanks Albano. I did see the stuff at Flecktarn but i really can't work out what is issue and what isn't.

    Also, the smock Steve has posted is a ripstop one and ripstop isn't thought to be on issue - yet. Personally, I prefer the standard cloth to the ripstop ......

    http://iacmc.forumotion.com/t4918-dso-and-private-purchase-flecktarn

    I'll know more when my felcktarn smock and trousers arrive. Being made by Scharrer, they should be definately issue........

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