M69 vs M76

M69







M76







M69 vs M76



The drawing of the 2 patterns is a little different, reversed and some place are identical,another not
Gilles

Gilles,

I don't see any differences in the shapes between these three examples. All I see is the differences between printing left/right and up/down.

Steve

OK, I see it now. The one on the far right has similar (same) shapes as the one in the middle, but the middle one has shapes that the one on the right does not. Basically, they made the right's rollers smaller so the pattern repeats more frequently. Interesting! I never noticed that, only the color differences.

Steve

Here is the M76 version of the Paraciadista (airborne) jacket. It seems to use the same pattern as the M69 type. Note the lack of pocket on the left arm:





Unfortunately I sold this jacket many years ago before I realized there are two versions of it. Which is why I have the M69 only instead of both

Steve

More pics for comparison. First is the very rare all green colored version, second is a very rare two sided (non-reversible) jacket in the M69 cut (official tag seen in the left pocket).





Steve

I must add a comment to this great thread. We all learn as we go and feel I should a share what I have learned studying these great uniforms.


Gilles , you are very fortunate to have this uniform.    





                                                                                                                  



It is not an M69.  It is a super rare Early M76.

M76 uniform are Legion uniforms. They alone have the Legion embroidery.  Other non Legion units have occasionally worn M76s, but the embroidery was either removed, or covered with slip on rank insignia.

These are the things that make this uniform rare.

Arm pocket. Generally, M76s do not have arm pockets, but some ( very few ) do.

What makes this uniform really rare is the Legion Embroidery on epaulettes.

It is an early M76 .  The Legion coat of arms embroidery has no royal crown. These were made briefly before Franco's death and before the Spanish monarchy was reinstituted.

Franco died in late 1975 but these uniforms had been in production before his passing.



The difference between Franco era and post Franco era Legion embroidery is illustrated in the photo below.

Most M76 Legion embroidery looks like the epaulette on the left.  Franco era epaulettes look like the embroidery on the right.  No royal crown.  
Although the photo shows a desert pattern epaulette, it is for illustration only. This is what Franco era Legion epaulette embroidery looks like compared to post Franco era ..



                                                                                                                      




You will find that M69 uniforms and M76 have distinct differences .   The most obvious difference is the wrist closure, but also the elbow reinforcement .  M69 on the left, M76 on the right..


                                                                                                                       



Also note the difference in how the sleeves are attached..  Once again, M69 on the left, M76 on the right..  



                                                                                                                         


Hope to not have created confusion, but do wish to congratulate Gilles, on a beautiful and rare historic uniform..

CollectinSteve wrote:Here is the M76 version of the Paraciadista (airborne) jacket.  It seems to use the same pattern as the M69 type.  Note the lack of pocket on the left arm:





Unfortunately I sold this jacket many years ago before I realized there are two versions of it.  Which is why I have the M69 only instead of both

Steve

Steve, this is an M69 without a sleeve pocket. No M76s were ever made in the green dominant pattern. Too bad you traded this ; it is unusual for M69 to not have sleeve pockets..

ripcord wrote:
Steve, this is an M69 without a sleeve pocket.    No M76s were ever made in the green dominant pattern.  Too bad you traded this ; it is unusual for M69 to not have sleeve pockets..

I traded it because I landed an unissued set M69 set  It does not have an arm pocket either, definitely never did.

From what I can tell the M69 and M76 versions have slightly different colors.  The M69 has a distinctly darker background green compared to the "mint" green of the M76 and airborne uniforms.  I have an unissued airborne set so I'm pretty confident that fading isn't a factor.

Here are the two side by side:




The differences are more subtle with the camera flash compared to having the two next to each other with only eyeballs. There's no question the M69 is more "olive" in the background green than any of the other printings which are fairly consistently "mint".

As for the Rocoso Legion vs. non-Legion, I can confirm that in my collection I have Legion M69 and M76, but do not have a non-Legion (COE) M76.  Despite me trying to have "one of everything" and seeing Rocoso uniforms for sale very frequently, I do not have a non-Legion M76.  Now I know why

Steve

CollectinSteve wrote:

ripcord wrote:
Steve, this is an M69 without a sleeve pocket.    No M76s were ever made in the green dominant pattern.  Too bad you traded this ; it is unusual for M69 to not have sleeve pockets..

I traded it because I landed an unissued set M69 set  It does not have an arm pocket either, definitely never did.

From what I can tell the M69 and M76 versions have slightly different colors.  The M69 has a distinctly darker background green compared to the "mint" green of the M76 and airborne uniforms.  I have an unissued airborne set so I'm pretty confident that fading isn't a factor.

Here are the two side by side:




The differences are more subtle with the camera flash compared to having the two next to each other with only eyeballs.  There's no question the M69 is more "olive" in the background green than any of the other printings which are fairly consistently "mint".

As for the Rocoso Legion vs. non-Legion, I can confirm that in my collection I have Legion M69 and M76, but do not have a non-Legion (COE) M76.  Despite me trying to have "one of everything" and seeing Rocoso uniforms for sale very frequently, I do not have a non-Legion M76.  Now I know why

Steve

We know M69s were issued in both Green Dominant and Brown dominant and that M76s were only manufactured in Brown dominant and were specific Legion uniforms.

I must add that all M69s have a Velcro front closure while M76s have a button front placket.

The" Airborne " uniform is not an M69, and is another story all together.  We actually do not know their Military designation, if any.

Despite having basically the same colors as Green dominant M61s and M69s, the base light green color and some white shapes are slightly different from any other Amoeba types .

I am very curious to see your Legion M69.  It is very possible M69s were used by some Legion units at some point, but I have never seen an M69 with the Legion embroidery on the epaulettes which would indicate Legion issue.
It is possible that slip on tabs with Legion embroidery may have been used, but I remain skeptical as M69s were issued primarily to COE and non Legion units like EZAPAC and others..

The exception is M86, which is an Amoeba type and obviously ( and strangely ) issued after M82s. They have been issued in both distinctive Legion and non Legion types.

                                                                                               

ripcord wrote:We know M69s were issued in both Green Dominant and Brown dominant and that M76s were only manufactured in Brown dominant and were specific Legion uniforms.

I must add that all M69s have a Velcro front closure while M76s have a button front placket.

Damn, it would have helped if I had not made a typo. The unissued "darker green" uniform I mentioned above is M76. Buttons, no arm pocket, all other M76 features. No Legion embroidery on epaulets. Distinctly darker green than the "mint green" color of the more common patterns.

I also have a used M69 set of the "mint green" set with no Legion embroidery and all standard M69 features.

The" Airborne " uniform is not an M69, and is another story all together.  We actually do not know their Military designation, if any.

And no official confirmation about the 3rd Model (French TAP 56 cut) being used for anything other than parade and recruiting duties, correct?

[quote]Despite having basically the same colors as Green dominant M61s and M69s, the base light green color and some white shapes are slightly different from any other Amoeba types .[./qute]

And different cloth. The M69 is a soft cotton, the airborne uniforms are of course the familiar thin canvas type material.

I am very curious to see your Legion M69.  It is very possible M69s were used by some Legion units at some point, but I have never seen an M69 with the Legion embroidery on the epaulettes which would indicate Legion issue.
It is possible that slip on tabs with Legion embroidery may have been used, but I remain skeptical as M69s were issued primarily to COE and non Legion units like EZAPAC and others.

Well now, you caused me to look at everything side by side. I think we have a bit of a mystery to explain.

My Legion M69 isn't M69, however it also isn't M76! It's some sort of strange hybrid. It has the cuffs and front of a M76, but the elbow reinforcements and arm pocket of M69. It also has Franco era Legion embroidery, which is consistent with M69 and not M76. So what's up with that?

I'll try to get some pictures sometime soon.

The exception is M86, which is an Amoeba type and obviously ( and strangely ) issued after M82s.  They have been issued in both distinctive Legion and non Legion types.

I have a Legion M86 but have passed on the non-Legion ones because the prices are high and I already have an example of the uniform. I really like the colors quite a bit. Then again, I love everything in this pattern!

Steve

And no official confirmation about the 3rd Model (French TAP 56 cut) being used for anything other than parade and recruiting duties, correct

And different cloth.  The M69 is a soft cotton, the airborne uniforms are of course the familiar thin canvas type material.

I am very curious to see your Legion M69.  It is very possible M69s were used by some Legion units at some point, but I have never seen an M69 with the Legion embroidery on the epaulettes which would indicate Legion issue.
It is possible that slip on tabs with Legion embroidery may have been used, but I remain skeptical as M69s were issued primarily to COE and non Legion units like EZAPAC and others.

Well now, you caused me to look at everything side by side.  I think we have a bit of a mystery to explain.

My Legion M69 isn't M69, however it also isn't M76!  It's some sort of strange hybrid.  It has the cuffs and front of a M76, but the elbow reinforcements and arm pocket of M69.  It also has Franco era Legion embroidery, which is consistent with M69 and not M76.  So what's up with that?

I'll try to get some pictures sometime soon.


Steve

Thanks Steve, I am curious to see the strange hybrid as I am curious to see any of the early Amoebas in which we take great interest and have much affection for.  

I have spoken to a couple of Spanish sources regarding the lightweight uniforms ( both the Para version and the TAP 56 cut ).

This includes at least one former Spanish Para that saw active service during the years in which M61s, M69s and whatever was used in between were in use.  We will share that info in due time .


In regards to M69s, I must add that Green Dominant variant had at least 2 variations of base green. One variant being slightly darker that the other (and not due to washing/ fading ). This is mentioned in Santiago's book as well.
Brown Dominant variants, on the other hand, remain consistent in their coloration and I believe any variation is due to washing/ fading.





                                                                                                                             

I am not sure if it is worthy of note or not, but I have a brown-dominant M69 jacket, typical features, but someone went through the trouble of removing the shoulder-boards. Purely conjecture on my part, but based on the discussion above, could it be possible that this was done by a Legionnaire prior to the introduction of the M76 uniform? It looked liked whoever did it started out carefully, then seemingly gave up after the initial removal.

Nice M69 ! Colors look great.

No telling why someone would want to remove epaulettes, but we do know M69s did not have Legion embroidery on epaulettes.. Only Legion M73s and M76s had Legion embroidery.

M69s and M79s were both manufactured up until the issue of M82s and worn simultaneously .

ripcord wrote:Nice M69 !  Colors look great.

No telling why someone would want to remove epaulettes, but we do know M69s did not have Legion embroidery on epaulettes..  Only Legion M73s and M76s had Legion embroidery.

M69s and M79s were both manufactured up until the issue of M82s and worn simultaneously .  

It seems there was some nostalgia for the M69 that lingered on into the Woodland uniform years.  I have a Woodland uniform in M69 cut and another with oval reinforcements without the extra stitching. I have others that have no M69 features other than the oval elbow reinforcements with extra stitching. Lots of variety!

Steve

Did they really use just velcro for the front closure....?

mylle wrote:Did they really use just velcro for the front closure....?

M69 blouses in both Green and Brown dominant were issued with a long Velcro strip instead of front buttons.  We have seen M76s modified with a front Velcro slip ( but they are issued with button closure ).

BTW,  M76s and Brown Dominant M69s are the same pattern.    Photo shows well worn M69 to left, well worn M76 in middle, and unused M76 on right.






                                                                                                             

[/quote]

It seems there was some nostalgia for the M69 that lingered on into the Woodland uniform years.  I have a Woodland uniform in M69 cut and another with oval reinforcements without the extra stitching.  I have others that have no M69 features other than the oval elbow reinforcements with extra stitching.  Lots of variety!

Steve[/quote]

Sounds like you have a few freak pieces. Freak in a good way, that is.  There are a lot of variations to the M69/M76 uniforms.  They both were made for quite a few years..



There is an M86 that has the basic cut as an M69 but it really is a mix of both M69/M76 . It was the last amoeba type and strangely came after M82 and used the same colors as M82. Check post # 10 on this thread.

There are actually 2 versions of that uniform. One for Legion, one for COE/Army . Neither have elbow reinforcement, and do have a few small differences between them .  But that is a story for another time.

I really do need to document my various Woodland variants prior to the adoption of the "German" type.  I've got quite a few.  Quick count shows 11, but I think there's at least one more somewhere.

The majority of that dozen are production variants in the 1980s and early 1990s on the way towards longer lasting production versions.  I think I now have one variant for each year.  There's also definite airborne variants and I don't know what else.

Steve

mylle wrote:Did they really use just velcro for the front closure....?

Green and Brown dominant M69s.

Velcro was a new invention at the time of this uniform, so I guess it was fairly innovative. At the time, Velcro use was fairly limited to military applications, mostly in aviation, and was still too expensive for regular folks.
If the Velcro strips are not regularly maintained ( kept clean ), they become useless.



                                                                                                                     

CollectinSteve wrote:I really do need to document my various Woodland variants prior to the adoption of the "German" type.  I've got quite a few.  Quick count shows 1, but I think there's at least one more somewhere.

The majority of that dozen are production variants in the 1980s and early 1990s on the way towards longer lasting production versions.  I think I now have one variant for each year.  There's also definite airborne variants and I don't know what else.

Steve

There is a dizzying amount of 1980s -1990 woodland types . M82 pattern was produced in so many different cuts . Some for specific units, like the Spanish Marines, air force units, and others.

These uniforms are blessed with decent tags which is a good thing for those who care.

ripcord wrote:
There is a dizzying amount of 1980s -1990 woodland types . M82 pattern was produced in so many different cuts . Some for specific units, like the Spanish Marines, air force units, and others.

These uniforms are blessed with decent tags which is a good thing for those  who care.

Just noticed a typo in my previous post... 11 Woodland variants counted, perhaps a 12th somewhere in a pile. Then there's the Navy/Marines and Airforce versions that I have, that's another 6. Then there is the "German" type in both smooth and ripstop, with a Navy/Marines ripstop rounding out the total array. Yesh, 21 in total that need documenting.

Yup, the Woodland types do tend to have labels with them. A couple of mine are unreadable or don't have any, but the rest do and there's dates on them. That makes me happy because I am someone who cares

Steve

Steve,

Another M69.  This one is similar in coloration to the M69 with no arm pocket you traded that is pictured here.

                                                                                                                          

                   
Like the one pictured above it is darker than my other 2 Green Dominant M69s; the source called it an airborne type. It is also without an arm pocket, and lacking elbow reinforcements as well.

Also, chest pockets are secured with Velcro as opposed to the usual button closure and retains a seldom seen label.  All these differences from my other Green Dominant M69s leads me to believe it is a late production uniform.



                                                                                                                         



                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                        

Looking a this photo, it's obvious that green colors are so dark, they appear nearly black and smaller black shapes are almost indiscernable .


                                                                             

                                                                                                     

Interesting. My guess is it is a washed out example of the darker type we've been discussing, but from an even darker print run! Because even my unissued example shows the dark green being distinctly green, not borderline black.

I don't have a good picture of my unissued set, but here's the picture of it when a Spanish friend found it at a local shop:



Looking through my pictures I found the back side of my former jacket (in case you don't have it):



Steve