Can anyone tell me more about these Sumpfmuster trousers please ?

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    Bury_Dave
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    Can anyone tell me more about these Sumpfmuster trousers please ?

    Post by Bury_Dave on Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:07 pm

    Came across these in my attic the other day .....





    These are the only marking i can find ......





    I think they are post WW2 BGS trousers. The 50 might be the size but as they are made very oversize, they fit my lardy 38" waist and 30" inside leg fine. I think the other print is the maker ?

    Pattern is strong and despite some buttons missing, they are in good condition. Only shame is that a previous owner had the legs taken in to a less baggy cut all along the inside seam.

    How rare are these ?

    Thanks for any help.
    Dave
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    saltefanden
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    Re: Can anyone tell me more about these Sumpfmuster trousers please ?

    Post by saltefanden on Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:34 pm

    Hi Dave,
    An avid BGS sumpftarn collector myself, I have not come across any pants in neither good nick or at an affordable price. So pretty rare I would say, and they look like early ones as well.
    I sure wish I had an attic like yours! Very Happy
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    CollectinSteve
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    Re: Can anyone tell me more about these Sumpfmuster trousers please ?

    Post by CollectinSteve on Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:01 pm

    Hi Dave,

    This is a quite rare Berlin Polizei Sumpftarn trousers, not BGS. It is patterned after the first general issue of BGS Sumpftarn uniforms, however there are some distinct differences that can be spotted even without looking at the stamp. The stamp "P.P.Berlin" (Polizei Präsidium Berlin) is the mark of acceptance for use with the Bereitschaftpolizei Berlin. This uniform was made in 1960 only, I think. Came in jacket, hood, and trousers. I've never seen a hat, but I suppose one could exist. This is a Size 50.

    I've seen many different manufactures stamps and there were roughly 3 different print variations of the camo colors. Often you see them mixed in one item, which is true here. Look at the right hand leg pocket and notice that the rain strokes are a dark olive green. Now look on the legs and see that they are a light gray green. The latter type is the dead giveaway that it's a PPBerlin item and not BGS. If you ever hold a BGS item in your hands you'll also note that the cloth is completely different.

    The rarity is interesting. For a while they were hardly ever seen correctly identified, but if you picked through listings on German eBay you could find one misidentified as BGS. Then a guy in Berlin sold off about 2 dozen sets which he got from a movie production company that had them as props. I've hardly seen a piece in the last few years. BGS trousers are worth more (somewhere in the $200-$300 range these days), but this type goes for decent money too ($150+)

    In short... you have a nice piece Very Happy

    Steve
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    Re: Can anyone tell me more about these Sumpfmuster trousers please ?

    Post by Bury_Dave on Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:15 am

    Thanks for that Steve, very illuminating. And, as you mentioned, it is different to the BGS stuff and I should have known that without being told as I've had several good BGS pieces pass through my hands over the years. Embarassed But good that we have traded info on these and DPM para smocks !

    It's odd to think that the German police were in camo and so militarized. Unthinkable to our Western Democracies these days.

    Well, these are heading to ebay as part of my reducing my collection the the bare minimum - unless anyone wants to make me an offer for them ........
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    Re: Can anyone tell me more about these Sumpfmuster trousers please ?

    Post by CollectinSteve on Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:26 pm

    I've got an orphan jacket I'm planning on selling/trading, so we should talk Very Happy PM on the way.

    Remember that West Berlin was completely surrounded by the enemy. Whether they wanted to or not, the Police would be obligated be involved in any military action. My personal opinion is the BPPolizei chose this uniform because in the event of an attack they would come under the command of the BGS, so it would make sense to have the same combat uniform (for all intents and purposes it is identical in that way).

    No other German Polizei organization had camouflage at all, so it's definitely related to the unique, precarious position of West Berlin.

    Steve
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    Bury_Dave
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    Re: Can anyone tell me more about these Sumpfmuster trousers please ?

    Post by Bury_Dave on Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:05 pm

    That's very interesting Steve. And very plausible too. Makes sense when you put it in context. Thanks. Even after many years collecting and at the end of my collecting days, every day is still a schoolday !

    I look forward to your PM ....... Smile

    Dave


    Last edited by Bury_Dave on Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:08 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Bloody spelling !)
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    Re: Can anyone tell me more about these Sumpfmuster trousers please ?

    Post by saltefanden on Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:00 pm

    P.P.Berlin, aye, I should have seen that!

    Keep reserve nice and high Dave, or simply make sure the boys and girls on this very forum is well informed of your pending eBay offer! Very Happy

    Nice one!
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    Re: Can anyone tell me more about these Sumpfmuster trousers please ?

    Post by Bury_Dave on Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:46 pm

    saltefanden wrote:P.P.Berlin, aye, I should have seen that!

    Keep reserve nice and high Dave, or simply make sure the boys and girls on this very forum is well informed of your pending eBay offer! Very Happy

    Nice one!

    Thanks for the advice ! Wink I had no idea about them and assumed they were just relatively common BGS trousers. Well, we will see what happens but I'll make sure that if they go in ebay that they are well advertised here too Very Happy

    Dave
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    Re: Can anyone tell me more about these Sumpfmuster trousers please ?

    Post by CollectinSteve on Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:09 pm

    There is nothing relatively common about BGS Sumpftarn trousers Very Happy That old stuff fetches some big bucks. Trousers routinely go in the $200 range. I just saw a hat, a HAT, go for $250. The hats are super rare, but that was a ridiculous price. Size 56 too.

    Steve
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    Re: Can anyone tell me more about these Sumpfmuster trousers please ?

    Post by Bury_Dave on Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:12 pm

    Are these recently sold jacket and trousers the same as mine ?

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/160762768353?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/380420324536?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

    And did anyone from here win these ?

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