Six-Color Cover

--I've discussed this with Philip, and we've not come to a firm conclusion. According to lore, there were never any six-color caps that were issued. This one is odd:




On a normal commercial/ surplus item, there might be a bogus DLA #.

On rare occasions, one might see a DCA #, and that would qualify the item as being a special contract item, but, according to a source who seemed to know quite a bit, DCA's did not come about until the 1990's.

So, the question is, how would anyone known to have come up with a DCA back in 1984?

There's an historical incongruity.

Like most things I ask questions about, I expect that this is easily resolved by one with knowledge, but intensive use of google hasn't nailed this one, yet.

I wouldn't ask for help if I hadn't already tried.

--Sorry-- 1986. I guess I had Orwell on the brain.

made for army - navy shops

I've got two caps in 6 color desert; one Army and one Marines. They are both unissued and legitimate. I'll see if I can find them and grab the dates and what prefix the contract number has.

Bancroft is a legitimate contractor, 1986 is not too early for the pattern. The label format looks good too. I'd guess the hat is legitimate and not a well produced fake.

As for DLA, the Defense Logistics Agency got it's name in 1977. I don't remember when they changed the prefix, but 1986 doesn't seem out of the range off the top of my head.

Steve

Going through some stuff tonight I found a 1986 dated DLA contract 6 Color Desert jacket. It was obviously worn by someone in the Air Force. More evidence that your hat is legit. Also, it is correct for it to have an OD rank on it, not desert, since that was all they had at the time.

Steve

--Thanks, Steve. This bit probably came from Andrews, or maybe Bolling. Could have been several other places, but my guess, like yours, is USAF.

Thank you for looking , and responding. My appreciation for these things has deepened a great deal since I started talking to you guys, and I'm very grateful.

--D.

Both seem to be wearing caps...left is George H.W Bush

Yup, and it isn't hard to find Stormin Norman Schwarzkopf in one:





Of course it's impossible to know if the hats and/or boonies are genuine issue or private purchase. There were all kinds of stories in the popular media during Desert Shield that talked about how Army/Navy shops were picked clean of anything in desert colors because the military simply didn't have the stocks of uniforms on hand.

Steve

All usmc six points cap and Army patrol cap are commercials, made for private purchases but never officially issued. The only issued head wears were boonie cap and K-pot cover.

Correction... I got my DCA and DLAs mixed up in my last post. If it was DLA that would be one thing, but I don't know what to make of a DCA number in that time period. Can someone show information that suggests a DCA number for 1986 is invalid?

I checked my two hats and the 8 point Marines hat has the following:

DCA 100-88-M-22016
8405-01-110-4885

My patrol cap (like Schwarzkopf's)

DLA 100-83-8-22915
8405-01-110-5021

I find it rather hard to believe that all of these are fakes. In my experience the faked labels have screaming problems with them.

It's possible that the items were made in small quantities and generally not available for Desert Shield/Storm. Vets saying "I was never issued one" could be entirely correct for that period. All the hats I've seen have early 1980s dates and we know that supplies in 1990 were inadequate.

Unless someone can prove the labels faked, I think they can't be so easily dismissed. Wouldn't be the first time I've heard "that doesn't exist" when in fact it was "they were never issued". Not the same thing.

Steve

From a 1992 US Cavalry catalog.USCAV puts in a note if an item is Issue.

US Cav, and other big catalog companies, very rarely sell genuine issue items until after they are out of service or are surplussed out as used. That's because anything other than that is illegal

Commercial production of US military uniforms (at least since the 1990s) has gone right along with the legitimate stuff. In fact, when the ACU was first being issued a soldier could more easily find a commercial copy through places like US Cavalry and BQM than through the Army supply system. I still remember 25th ID's website threatening soldiers who even thought of wearing a non-standard issue uniform.

Steve

There's a difference between fake and commercial. Those hats are NOT fake.... Just commercial pieces which were available to US troops at that time. There are NO "real" issue hats in this pattern except for boonie hat. The manual clearly stated it. (I couldn't recall where the scan of it is at). But once again, doesn't mean it was never worn. You have photographic evidences of Generals wearing those hats.

IMO, this thread should be moved to DS or US section.

No argument on my end, Jeremy. I was only curious about the "DCA" number, and I reckon we have all of that sorted out by now.

And... I do appreciate everyone's input. It has been a fun thread.

--Dan

Yeah, the problem is it is illegal for a contractor to use a DCA or DLA number unless they are authorized to. And if they are authorized, that defacto means it is an official DoD item. Whether the regs state the hat exists or not isn't as relevant as the contract number. There's all kinds of stuff that have official contract numbers yet aren't mentioned in the regs.

There are two possibilities. The first is that the labels on these items are faked to make them look like legitimate issue. The second is that these were contracted for, and purchased by, the US government with the intention of issuing them. They either issued them on a limited basis (the contract numbers are all 1980s) or never got around to putting them in the system for whatever reason. Although it is illogical and a waste to contract and buy things that aren't used, the DoD often has it's own special form of logic which we mere private sector mortals can not hope to understand

In my opinion, the first possibility is not the case for the items I've seen. My experience is the Chinese factories do a HORRIBLE job reproducing the labels. They either use their cheap plastic labels, which is a dead giveaway right there, cite the wrong nomenclature, have spelling and/or formatting mistakes, and/or have a contract number that isn't in synch with the item. Oh, and usually they are all the same (no variation).

Which is why my opinion is these items are legitimate government contract items and not the product of an elaborate, first of it's kind Chinese hoax. Whether they were ever issued or not is something I can not speculate on.

Steve

" Although it is illogical and a waste to contract and buy things that aren't used, the DoD often has it's own special form of logic which we mere private sector mortals can not hope to understand "

Indeed! Though, to be honest, in my experience-- it is the men who wear suits and lurk about the second floor of The Building who subscribe to this "special form" of logic. Few in uniform are so obtuse (although there are some, and I've met a couple).

My guess is that the major who wore this was probably not in cahoots with any Chinese faction.

One thing that I would like to thank everyone here for is in how you have changed my disposition on collecting. I always had an eye for things, but since I've been talking to you-- you've not only sharpened it, but you've given me a much better appreciation of these Things We Collect. I used to just have The Box I'm Keeping (which were items in my size), and The Box I'm Selling (too small). Now, I have The Box of Heroes (which is to be kept forever, or until such a time as they may be handed down to somebody who cares).

Thanks for the refinement, Gentlemen.

Wow..never knew that people would fake Gulf War 1 items?Was already an adult collector and modeller at that time and always perusing BQM,USCAV catalogs and Soldier of fortune,Time,Newsweek,Life magazines etc... for pictorial references.No instant internet visual magic then.
They never hid the fact that you knew they were commercial were the MADE IN U.S.A. print on the similarly issue made labels.Propper and Truspec were still making them stateside then.

That's just the thing, I haven't seen any specific attempts at faking GW1 stuff. Which is one reason why I don't think the items I have with DLA and DSA tags are frauds. There's really no incentive to fake something like this, especially with an early 1980s date.

Steve

CollectinSteve wrote:That's just the thing, I haven't seen any specific attempts at faking GW1 stuff. Which is one reason why I don't think the items I have with DLA and DSA tags are frauds. There's really no incentive to fake something like this, especially with an early 1980s date.

Steve

My thoughts exactly Steve.
Then the camo to be had and most sought after was the Night Desert Parka.
Nes

Yup. Now, at the time there were US made (or at least US corporate made) copies for the commercial market. Absolutely, as the US Cav scan shows very clearly. But these would not have fake contract numbers on them so there's no way the pieces found in catalogs and surplus shops could be confused with the real items even 20 years later.

Steve

Not exactly the same topic, but related, faked 1980s items, this looks maybe suspicious DAL?:

Oddly enough, this supports what I've been speculating on. Why? Because this jacket is not a fake Yup, this was probably one of the very last OD-107 jungle items ever officially made:

http://www.socnet.com/archive/index.php/t-64589.html

Note that the design is the "Transitional" cut which came about around 1977. The camouflage versions were discontinued in 1981 when the BDU design was introduced. However, the OD version continued on for a while. Apparently 1987. Notice that there are take up tabs on the sides, which was a short lived feature of the time and not found on the earlier Transition type uniforms.

From what I understand the uniform was in very limited use mostly with personnel operating in Central and South America. The uniform was kept in circulation because they had not yet introduced the Hot Weather version of Woodland. As soon as they did, they killed off the OD version for standard use. OPFOR still had access to OG and Black versions in the BDU style, but not sure when that started.

Plus, why would anybody fake a 1987 model OG-107 jungle jacket? If it were a US contractor making them for a commercial market the label would not have a DLA number or other pieces of information. In fact, I have a set of trousers I got in the early 1990s, made in the US, and it doesn't have labels that look anything like the real deals.

Steve

Oui! Further backed up by the fact that "DAL" numbers are real, but rare.

Normally, it is "DLA," but "DAL" exists.: http://www.dla.mil/documents/acronyms.pdf (ctrl + f [enter] DAL , and you'll see).

You done good, buddy.

--D.

That is pretty cool, isn't it? The wonders of Google

Steve

So should I buy it - it's about $60 not shipped....