Trials (85 Ptn) PLCE Respirator haversack?

Hi Lads,
Looking for some info on how to recognise the trials variant PLCE Resi haversack.I have a 1990 pattern one but cant seem to find any pics of the 85 pattern one anywhere.Any ideas?

PS: I have just got it into my head to try to build a complete set of the 85 Ptn PLCE(there goes my bank balance )so I am looking to trade/purchase any spares people may have gathering dust in their collections.So if any of ye fancy parting with any items from that kit please message me.

Whilst in the Army I was based at Warminster from 1984-6 and regularly worked with ITDU (Infantry Trials and Development Unit). As such I saw most of the kit on trial during this period.

83 Trials Pattern
PLCE went through a long evolution starting in the early 1980’s with a pattern known to collectors as 83 pattern. This set had a resi pouch which was quite similar to the S6 nylon 58 pouch. The main distinguishing feature besides the fabric was the belt attachment which was a very simple fixed flap /loop for the belt to pass through of which it had two. This allowed the pouch to be worn in a low or a high position. Think of the SAS belt order pouch belt fittings – the resi pouch was like this except the loops were wider.

85 Trials resip pouch
The next generation was the pattern known as 85 trials. The resi pouch trialled during this period had two particular recognition features – the first being the absence of the small DKP puffer bottle pocket on the outside. The second feature being that the belt attachment was, again, a simple flap - but this time it has press stud fastenings. The press studs allowed the pouch to be fitted directly over the belt without the need to thread the belt through the loop from the buckle.

My personal ‘claim to fame’ with regards to this kit is that I highlighted to ITDU the error with this pouch – i.e. the fact that the DKP pocket was missing. Up till this point it had gone unobserved.

There was possibly another style of resi pouch on trial with 85 trials kit (although I suspect this pouch came slightly later in the trials programme). The other type of resi pouch for this period had straps with fastex buckles as loops to fix the pouch to the belt – it also had the small DKP pouch re-introduced.

Later still came the more common 90 Patt (olive) resi pouch types - of which I think there at least two variations.

From my experience most of this trials kit is well marked and dated so you should be able to confirm if its trials kit by the date.

Bear in mind that anything dated up until 1988 could still be classed as trials really as 90 Patt did not get accepted for service use until  Feb 1989 and first issues were in Nov 1989 (although obviously some kit was used prior for trials).

I have pics of most this kit but they are not my pics so unfortunately I cannot share them sorry – but I am happy to answer any questions.

Thanks for the reply! Now all i gotta do is find one of the elusive 85 pattern resi pouches along with the ammo pouches to complete the CEFO.
I recently got the belt and what i believe to be three utility pouches.However I believe the previous owner cut off the yoke attachment points off the pouches Also was there any difference between the utility pouch and the waterbottle pouch?

(What I REALLY need is the user PAM so I would be able to I.D all the components and more importantly be able to assemble them properly.All I am going off at the moment is Simon Howletts excellent book on modern British webbing)

Hi, no probs with the info.

The 85 trials water bottle pouch in pretty much the same as the utility pouch minus the yoke attachments.

I never saw a PAM for 85 Trials kit whilst in service and I have never seen one since (there probably was one though – mostly likely a short a user guide). I can help with guidance if needed - for assembly.

If you haven’t got an 85 Trials ETH pouch - these are available on eBay and are only £3.99 inc postage.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/British-Olive-Green-PLCE-Entrenching-Tool-Pouch-Trials-Prototype-Grade1-Free-P-P-/172011694945?hash=item280cb22b61:g:DsUAAOSwstxVIYHr

Plenty of the trials E tool carriers on Ebay UK cheaply but all the other bits are hard to find.

There was a UK seller who regularly listed various bits,belts,pouches etc,not cheap so keep an eye open incase he pops up again.

Dont forget the trials bergen as well to add to the wants list.

I have three ETH pouches.I think I might offer two for trade though.At a guess I would say the rarest item is the rocket pouch yoke or maybe the resi haversack.The quest begins

I agree about the rocket pouch yoke,followed by the waist belt for the trials bergen.

Gulf91 wrote:I agree about the rocket pouch yoke,followed by the waist belt for the trials bergen.

There was an Army surplus warehouse in Middleton Co.cork that we all used to frequent back when the Irish DF used '90ptn PLCE as the owner used to get pallet loads of surplus in from the U.K.We all used to buy surplus pouches to supplement the issue kit and the odd bloke would buy a MK6 helmet and stick an irish helmet cover on as they were more comfortable to wear with peltors than our Israeli lid at the time.
Anyway I used to root through the boxes and would often find what i now know to be 85Ptn bergan belts and various pouches,but because the were not the same as the issue stuff and at the time i hadn't taken up collecting i never purchased.
Do I feel like a dumbass now.

Raptor wrote:

Gulf91 wrote:I agree about the rocket pouch yoke,followed by the waist belt for the trials bergen.

There was an Army surplus warehouse in Middleton Co.cork that we all used to frequent back when the Irish DF used '90ptn PLCE as the owner used to get pallet loads of surplus in from the U.K.We all used to buy surplus pouches to supplement the issue kit and the odd bloke would buy a MK6 helmet and stick an irish helmet cover on as they were more comfortable to wear with peltors than our Israeli lid at the time.
Anyway I used to root through the boxes and would often find what i now know to be 85Ptn bergan belts and various pouches,but because the were not the same as the issue stuff and at the time i hadn't taken up collecting i never purchased.
Do I feel like a dumbass now.

Yep,I dread to think over the years what rare stuff Ive sold not knowing then what they were but with this expensive,addictive collecting lark every day is a school day.

Real problem for me is that Im limited(apart from various forums)to Ebay for buying most of my kit and due to the increased popularity of this gear and now more and more people looking for the limited amount of certain items that unless Im very lucky,I tend to most of the time always end up getting outbid and losing out(happened now 3 times on the trot in a short space of time,all the same guy that has ended up winning).Answer to that is of course up my max bids but I collect on a very tight budget and have my limits and have to stick to them,ok sometimes I do end up bidding more than I would(still end up losing)but some people/collectors have an unlimited budget and are prepared to pay pretty much whatever the price so yes,hate losing out but no sour grapes as unless the item was a one off,chances are,play the waiting game and the item/s will turn up,sometimes a lot cheaper than I had originally bid so all part of the fun and games I guess.

On the subject of resi cases,never gave them a second thought to be honest so will of course now be on the lookout and will have to when I get a chance have a rummage to see what I have in the hope that I have a rare beast amongst them,heehhh.

exwoofer wrote:Whilst in the Army I was based at Warminster from 1984-6 and regularly worked with ITDU (Infantry Trials and Development Unit). As such I saw most of the kit on trial during this period.

83 Trials Pattern
PLCE went through a long...

85 Trials resip pouch
The next generation was...

THANK YOU EXWOOFER!!!

You don't know for how long I've been trying to get this information!

exwoofer wrote:I have pics of most this kit but they are not my pics so unfortunately I cannot share them sorry – but I am happy to answer any questions.

Are these right?

I don't know if the CEFO is right, I added the E-Tool Case because I'm sure I saw it fitted to a trials set worn in a picture I saw back in the day. Then I saw it on the 1985 trials set then the 1990 issue set.



I'm keen to know anything about the 1983 rucksack. Like the 1985 one, it had the "upside down" zips. But was it like a Berghaus or like the 1985 trials rucksack? And did it come in Long and Short back?



I've a 1985 rucksack and the intermediate (trials? prototype?) 1988/9? rucksack between that and the standard 1990 issue. I can't see/read the markings so can't see the year. On eBay, I've seen the year as 1989 but, I think, I've also seen 1988 in the past. A lot of my early "1990 Pattern" CEFO pouches are dated 1988.

1985 Side Pouch Yoke:
Last year, I learnt what the 1985 Side pouch Yoke looked like - a V shaped affair - and I remembered them being for sale in a surplus shop in Croydon! Oddly, I passed it soon after on the tram when I went to buy the first of my 1988/9 rucksacks - but the shop's closed down.

The shops yokes stuck in my mind because I was last in that shop when we were first issued 1990 PLCE in 1991. I saw them hanging off the wall and asked the owner what the weird things were. He told me PLCE Side Pouch Yokes. He was selling them at something like £28. I told him that the Side Pouch Yokes were near identical to the Yoke Main and that he'd been conned but he was adamant that they were genuine...


Only took me 28 years to find out he was as right as I was wrong. Or is that he was as wrong as I was right..?

Hi sorry for the delay - only just discovered your post!
Your CEFO looks good from what I can see (in the absence of markings etc).
I have only ever seen one 83 rucksack and I bought it. So I'm not completely certain but my research suggests there was only ONE style - no shorter version. The pattern does not follow the Berghaus design - it was bespoke and was more likely modeled upon the Rucksack SAS. (although the frame is internal and it features detachable side pouches) . An unusual feature is that it has a large external zip giving access to the main component.
I am still building my 1983 pattern kit so if you come upon any duplicates - please let me know. I will pay a generous price.

Any chance of some pics of the 83 Pattern Bergen??

At the moment I have hopes of using some of my collection as the basis for a future publication. Therefore I am holding back on making some items public - to retain some degree of exclusively. However, if these plans don't materialise I will likely share at that point.
That said - as in this thread - I aim to be helpful to fellow collectors by sharing my knowledge.

exwoofer wrote:
Your CEFO looks good from what I can see (in the absence of markings etc).

I was in a BIG hurry when I took these ref pics as I was moving home - it was more so that I knew what I had and didn't buy duplicates! (I've never seen any but I don't get out much!)

(I didn't do this with the '85 "set" and have to keep buying W/B and Util Pouches - when seen - because I don't know what I have...)  

From memory, there are markings on the back of the Amm Pouches but not on the belt. The rest I'm unsure of. You can see the markings on the back of the side pouches, though. I photographed the back of those to show the shoulder straps. I bought the item complete, way back in the 1990s at the same time as the CEFO. (At the monthly Warnham militaria fair)

exwoofer wrote:
I have only ever seen one 83 rucksack and I bought it. So I'm not completely certain but my research suggests there was only ONE style - no shorter version. The pattern does not follow the Berghaus design - it was bespoke and was more likely modeled upon the Rucksack SAS. (although the frame is internal and it features detachable side pouches) . An unusual feature is that it has a large external zip giving access to the main component.
I am still building my 1983 pattern kit so if you come upon any duplicates - please let me know.

Going by my side pouches, all I know of the '83 Trials rucksack is that it has coil zips to attach the side pouches, not the plastic toothed YKK type on Berghauses and '85/'90 PLCE. And that it's green cordura...


I remember seeing a kit layout of Pathfinder Platoon. The signaller had a "PLCE" rucksack that opened up by zip (clamshell or suitcase style, I think) - is that how it opens up, like the current ECM rucksack?

I didn't see it in detail and have never seen another: I took it to be specialist signals kit. I don't know if it's the same rucksack. I DO recall seeing a green cordura version of the Rucksack SAS - but that had the external frame on it. I since decided that it had to be an earlier version of the Dragon Supplies "Rucksack Airborne SAS/PARA Mk2 DPM" which is a commercial item. I don't know for certain, just assumed.

exwoofer wrote:At the moment I have hopes of using some of my collection as the basis for a future publication. Therefore I am holding back on making some items public - to retain some degree of exclusively. However, if these plans don't materialise I will likely share at that point.
That said - as in this thread - I aim to be helpful to fellow collectors by sharing my knowledge.

I had the same idea when '90 Patt PLCE was introduced! In the vein of continuing from Mike Chappell's books. His projection for the future looked like '72 Trials CEFO though, by the time his book was published (Nov 1980). In his defence, at that time, it WAS the latest new design.

British Infantry Equipments 1908-1980

Thirty years on, I'm STILL learning though! A MASSIVE knock was discovering KarkeeWeb and realising that there were a few more (obscure) sets to collect AND there were people out there FAR more knowledgeable than me. The desire's still there, though.

I've reasoned that I'd have to collaborate with others because I have big gaps in my knowledge, such as the PECOC trials and VIRTUS (or is that "Turdus", going by it's popularity with the troops?!). I can't stir interest within myself to care. With two major deployments, I'm far from current with how the troops use, repurpose and modify their kit. Looking at video presentations on YouTube, they often seem to carry far too much kit and luxuries that they can get by without or with simpler items.

The vast majority of my collection is in storage over 250 miles away with some in another direction just under 200 miles away. I've visited the main lot once in 14 years but am hoping to bring all my stuff together later this year. Then I can catalogue and reference it all then sell any duplicates I've bought since.

If you can't complete the '83 CEFO (I can't know - or know how complete/incomplete is mine) and I can't get the '83 trials rucksack, might it be better to make a collaboration rather than shelve the idea? I used to be a studio photographer and, after redundancy, made a point of retaining my studio kit. Once I have my collection home, I'll be cataloguing and photographing my bits to the end of illustrating a book. Then repacking away.

When I die, this stuff goes to museums. They can sell anything surplus to their needs to raise funds for their upkeep.

I was just watching a YouTube video whilst checking my notifications and the vid was on about the MACV-SOG Recon vest. I guess I may be a bit of a kit nerd therefore! That's a side interest though as my two main passions are;
British Army uniform and equipments of the 1980s
And
Trials equipment (Army) from the 1970s - 1990s.
I've been collecting seriously for about 15 years and those two subject areas reflect my service experience (Regular Army - Infantry in the 1980s and my time working with ITDU using trials kit). I used to go to fairs etc but mainly buy on Ebay these days.
As I was collecting Trial kit prior to it getting more popular I built a reasonable assembly - given my limited budget.
Your CEFO pics are perfectly fine - it's just that there are a few issues of the 83 pattern kit items - whilst they improved /changed kit - so the full picture is useful to distinguish between these.
Your belt looks fine - the velcro is a giveaway feature there. I have a similar one but I believe (hope!) mine is an early prototype.
The rest of your CEFO looks right too.
I can add a bit more detail regarding the 83 bergen. The basic design is similar to the nylon SAS Rucksack (I've measured some of the two packs dimensions and these match perfectly - so I am certain of the connections)
One main compartment with a large outer low front pocket. The lid is oversized and has an internal zip pocket. The shoulder straps are very simple ones.
The access zip is horizontal across the pack and on the front.
Interesting, although the external zip on the 83 bergen was dropped by the time of the 85 bergen, when the SAS designed the trials Air Support Back bergen they tried this idea again (with a vertical external zip). So they must have liked this idea!
Karkee Webb is a brilliant site and I am pleased to have helped them with some small bits of help.
I very much agree ref the kit carried by troops today. There is too much of it and it's often too specific (and technical).
It's really interesting that you have some photography skills because they are really useful and I have no particular abilities or equipment. I wonder if we could help each other out in that regard in the future? Something to think about maybe.
I also have ambitions to catalogue my collection but you have some advantages. Other than your collection sounds pretty extensive.

It seems we have a fair bit in common so I'm pleased to have made contact with you.