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Porkchop
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    Woodland camo jacket

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    Post by matchstick Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:18 am

    Not sure if this might have been a trials thing, special made for "them" types or just a civvie garment but picked this up several months back.
    Was listed as a Canadian tropical camo combat jacket or words to that effect.

    Made from the same material as the old OD Canadian combats, no labels inside it and the only differences I can find from standard Canadian stuff is the lack of nylon linings and mag dividers in the pockets, interior Velcro chest pocket and reinforced elbow patches and the buttons used on the epaulettes are different to the ones on my OD jackets.

    Woodland camo jacket Img_3815

    Woodland camo jacket Img_3817

    Woodland camo jacket Img_3816

    Woodland camo jacket Img_3818

    Woodland camo jacket Img_3820

    Woodland camo jacket Img_3819


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    Post by Wolverine Wed Dec 21, 2022 10:14 pm

    There were a number of different DPM patterns and jackets tested by the CF circa the early 1980s. This may be one of them, although the pattern is not one that I have seen in person or in photographs before.

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    Post by matchstick Mon Dec 26, 2022 2:56 pm

    Was a new one on me as the only examples of camo patterns on Canadian kit prior to CADPAT are the Para Smocks and the pictures of the trials DPM stuff on a thread in this forum and the occasional garrison jacket on eBay.

    Only took the gamble on this as it was made of the same material used in Canadian uniforms and from what was visible in the few pictures on the listing (all external shots) appeared to have all the features and design of standard Canadian issue kit.
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    Post by Porkchop Tue Jan 03, 2023 11:54 am

    Hi,
    I remember these combat shirt being on sale at local army surplus stores in Toronto and Montreal in the late 80's and 90's. These ( in the woodland pattern) were made specifically for the civilian market. The company making them at the time was Peerless Garments in Winnipeg. They were different from issue garments in not having the large laundry tags, and they had no mag pouch liners in the lower pockets.
    I notice that your example seems different epaulette buttons. This would mean that you have a used garment as a new one would have Canadian sliding style buttons same as the button up line (ie small buttons).
    The size was generally hand written on a small white tag on the back of the collar. it seems that yours was cut off.
    All the same, I still think this is a nice piece to have. There are matching trousers out there.

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    Post by matchstick Tue Jan 03, 2023 1:31 pm

    Porkchop wrote:Hi,
    I remember these combat shirt being on sale at local army surplus stores in Toronto and Montreal in the late 80's and 90's. These ( in the woodland pattern) were made specifically for the civilian market. The company making them at the time was Peerless Garments in Winnipeg. They were different from issue garments in not having the large laundry tags, and they had no mag pouch liners in the lower pockets.
    I notice that your example seems different epaulette buttons. This would mean that you have a used garment as a new one would have Canadian sliding style buttons same as the button up line (ie small buttons).
    The size was generally hand written on a small white tag on the back of the collar. it seems that yours was cut off.
    All the same, I still think this is a nice piece to have. There are matching trousers out there.

    Certainly an obscure piece to come across in my opinion, especially here in the UK as Canadian stuff is few and far between. Thanks for the background info on it as that kind of information is even harder to come across.

    I imagine the size label would've been cut out either for rubbing on ones neck (as I usually do if its not the kind that's completely sewn down) or fell off of its own accord. There is a 1 cent size hole in the left sleeve I need to patch at some point that isn't visible in the pics I posted and the elbow/fore-arm areas are a bit worn down which isn't really visible in the pics either showing its had a fair bit of use in outdoors type activities. I'd hazard a guess that the epaulette buttons might have been swapped out for comfort when wearing bags or the such compared to the slotted types if they weren't fitted as a result of the originals falling off but I can always swap them back over easily enough.

    I'll keep a watch out for the matching trousers now.
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    Post by TimB Tue Jan 03, 2023 11:11 pm

    I recall in about 1983 or 1984 some of the boys from the Airborne Regiment or 2RCHA came down to Toronto to jump with us. Some of them wore a trials camo jacket, but the pattern was not this US woodland. It was more like the Aussie pattern of the time period (round blotches) but more green and black than tan. I did not have my camera and I have yet to see a photo of that trials pattern. Yes, I also noticed the button on the epaulette is wrong.

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    Post by CollectinSteve Thu Jan 05, 2023 9:22 pm

    This is referred to as the "Tanzanian" pattern as supposedly these were sold off as part of a military aid package. Some were retained and worn by Canadian forces. I have one that had Canadian badges removed from it.

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    Post by Porkchop Thu Jan 05, 2023 11:57 pm

    Ha! I knew I had just recently seen the trousers.
    https://www.globalarmysurplus.com/ca/en/navy-blue-combat-style-pant--p342?c=70

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    Post by CollectinSteve Fri Jan 06, 2023 1:56 pm

    Those trousers are recent production commercial. Definitely not related to the jacket posted above.

    All of these had no markings in them, but instead had a white square tag sewn where the tag should be. These were briefly issued in the late 1970s or very early 1980s. There were some earlier examples with standard military tags from 1974, but those are likely exceptionally rare.

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    Post by Porkchop Fri Jan 06, 2023 3:36 pm

    Begging your pardon, but as far as I know all the "Tanzanian" uniforms were made in DPM.

    There might be a chance that this jacket was made for a troop trial in Canada because the epaulette button seems to be an issue button  from the earlier bush jacket. Probably, whatever was at hand was used.

    I got this uniform at a surplus store in Toronto in 1983 for cadets.

    Woodland camo jacket 20230110
    Woodland camo jacket 20230111
    Woodland camo jacket 20230112

    Sorry if these image are a little large. I am still getting the hang of this.


    Last edited by Porkchop on Fri Jan 06, 2023 4:08 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Image deserves comment)
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    Post by Porkchop Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:06 am

    Let me see if there is room for more pictures:
    Woodland camo jacket 20230119
    Re: the picture above:  
    You see that the woodland jacket in the original post does not have any nylon inserts for the pockets. Only issue clothing had these inserts. Originally, these inserts were supposed to carry 6 (C1 or SLR) magazines. These inserts were also in the issue OG107/pine green "combats" that had the same cut. There were also versions of this shirt made for the civilian market. These "civi" combats did not have any nylon inserts, either.

    Woodland camo jacket 20230118
    Now that i look at it honestly, there is a little uncertainty about the trousers in my mind. I obtained the jacket and the shirt as a set in 1983.
    But on the trousers there is that waist adjustment tab that I have not seen on any green combats, neither the Mk II or the MKIII. The buckle is plastic. i am also now seeing that the belt loops do not have any sliding buttons but then I do not know if "Tanzanian" trousers had any. There are no sandtraps either, on the DPM trousers.

    Woodland camo jacket 20230120


    Last edited by Porkchop on Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by TimB Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:23 am

    This pattern was available in the early 1980's in surplus stores. We were told that this clothing was made for snipers. The cam pattern is the same for the parachute smocks, but the material is way thinner. The trial pattern I saw in 1984 was not this one - it was rounder and much more green and black. The rumour in 1980 was that the generals did not like camo uniforms because it made the soldiers look "too aggressive", so that is why this pattern was not adopted. The Airborne Regiment and SSF were the only ones to wear the camo jump smocks.
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    Post by Porkchop Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:28 am

    Are you by chance talking about the stuff that would become the garrison dress?

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    Post by TennoHeikaNate Sat Jan 07, 2023 2:35 am

    I apologize as I don't recall where I got these pics from and reverse image search won't tell me either, but here are two versions from somebodies' collection
    of one of the non-DPM CDF trials patterns you might be thinking of. There was also the Tanzanian DPM, a darker DPM, and another DPM in a coloration very similar to the Tanzanian one, but in an atypical uniform cut.
    Woodland camo jacket Canadi11
    Woodland camo jacket Canadi10
    Woodland camo jacket Canadi12
    Woodland camo jacket Canadi13
    And here's a pic that was posted in another thread of the "dark" trials DPM, which seems to share the same color scheme as the above two
    "balls" variation patterns.
    Woodland camo jacket Canadi14

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    Post by Porkchop Sat Jan 07, 2023 3:29 am

    Wowsers! I have never ever seen that pattern before.
    It is a little reminiscent of AUSCAM and Belgian Balls and moon.
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    Post by TimB Sat Jan 07, 2023 11:29 am

    Nate! Eureka! That's the one! I did not realize there were 2 or 3 variations. What a rare bird. Too bad they did not adopt this pattern, but I heard that it was too dark when it was wet.
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    Post by Porkchop Sat Jan 07, 2023 11:58 am

    The top pattern looks like it could be the spiritual ancestor for the colourway of CADPAT.
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    Post by matchstick Sat Jan 07, 2023 4:39 pm

    Those look cool af. I'm a bit jealous of who-evers unearthed and owns those.
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    Post by CollectinSteve Sun Jan 08, 2023 2:41 am

    Porkchop wrote:Begging your pardon, but as far as I know all the "Tanzanian" uniforms were made in DPM.

    You are, of course, 100% correct!  I had tired eyes and even though you said "Woodland" I thought DPM.  In my defense your pictures are kinda dark for tired eyes that could do with wearing glasses now and then Wink

    There might be a chance that this jacket was made for a troop trial in Canada because the epaulette button seems to be an issue button  from the earlier bush jacket. Probably, whatever was at hand was used.

    Personally, I've not heard of any field uniforms being made in Woodland camo.  I have a feeling it is commercial in nature.  

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    Last edited by CollectinSteve on Sun Jan 08, 2023 2:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by CollectinSteve Sun Jan 08, 2023 2:50 am

    matchstick wrote:Those look cool af. I'm a bit jealous of who-evers unearthed and owns those.

    IIRC those images came from an example documented by Ed Storey. He is the foremost authority on the early Canadian camo uniforms. I thought he had an account here, but I could be mistaken about that.

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    Post by TennoHeikaNate Sun Jan 08, 2023 4:15 am

    Ah thank you Steve, I'm almost positive now it was from Ed's collection! I tried a few different engines but reverse search still can't tell me where those photos originally came out of, it's possible whatever host had them went down and took the originals with it.
    I do have two pics, one from Ed Storey's collection and another from http://mpmuseum.org/securuniform/ of the "bright/lime" DPM pattern, in the similar but not quite Mk. II combat jacket cut. The second source IIRC mentioned that this version was trialed in CFB Gagetown. I'm not sure how many other trials patterns there were but the only other one I can think of, the "dark" DPM, is the only one I've never seen an example in a collection, though I wouldn't be surprised if Ed had one.

    Woodland camo jacket Canadi15
    Woodland camo jacket Canadi16
    Woodland camo jacket 1980s_10

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    Post by Porkchop Mon Jan 09, 2023 3:01 am

    CollectinSteve wrote:
    Personally, I've not heard of any field uniforms being made in Woodland camo.  I have a feeling it is commercial in nature.  

    Steve

    That is why I posted the link to those commercial trousers. That cut or pattern has not changed for the civilian market since the 80s.
    I do have one further question, however: Were Canadian issue trousers, the only ones to have the sandtraps in the bottom leg? Any civi type of Canadian style trouser seems not to have had it. Did the "Tanzanian" pattern trousers have sand traps or not? This might help me in identifying my dpm trousers. Thanks.
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    Post by CollectinSteve Mon Jan 09, 2023 3:51 pm

    Porkchop wrote:That is why I posted the link to those commercial trousers. That cut or pattern has not changed for the civilian market since the 80s.

    Yes, exactly. And the Pakistani copies of CADPAT AR are complete with very real looking labels too. I was very surprised to see a rack of them at a surplus shop in Quebec many years ago. I'll be there again in a couple of weeks so I'll note if there's Woodland trousers and report back.

    I do have one further question, however: Were Canadian issue trousers, the only ones to have the sandtraps in the bottom leg? Any civi type of Canadian style trouser seems not to have had it.

    I think that is true. The sandtrap feature is exactly the sort of feature I expect a commercial company to abandon. It's not useful for "fashion" and adds costs.

    However, I am pretty sure the Pakistani CADPAT AR has them. Same with the silly buttons on the belt loops.

    Did the "Tanzanian" pattern trousers have sand traps or not? This might help me in identifying my dpm trousers. Thanks.

    My set is less than a meter away from where I sit at my computer, so easily answered Wink No, there are no sandtraps for the Tanzanian trousers.

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    Post by ripcord Sat Jan 14, 2023 3:59 pm

    This one just sold on eBay .


                                                https://www.ebay.com/itm/255916596032

                                                  Woodland camo jacket S-l16053
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    Post by Wolverine Sat Jan 14, 2023 9:35 pm

    The buttons on the belt loops were not without purpose. They were placed there for attaching suspenders, which were still being manufactured as late as 2000 (I have set with that date). For those who preferred suspenders to a belt, the buttons could be quite practical, although I don't know how commonly they were used that way.


    Last edited by Wolverine on Sat Jan 14, 2023 9:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

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