Current issue M98

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    ripcord
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    Current issue M98

    Post by ripcord on Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:35 pm

    My love with Norwegian patterns continues....

                                                                                         


                                                                                                         

                                                                                                        

                                                                                                        

                                                                                                        


                                                                                                        

                                                                                                        

                                                                                                        

                                                                                                        

                                                                                                        

                                                                                                        



                                                                                                       


    There are some obvious differences between the current and the older M98s.  Most obvious is the use of Canadian type buttons and Velcro arm  panels ..
    Also the current blouse is lighter in weight.   Similar upgrades to current desert patterned non ripstop uniforms are also in effect.


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    Re: Current issue M98

    Post by Berserk92 on Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:25 pm

    This is not an M98 uniform.
    This is a M04 uniform. ... Used in garrison, daily work and is more or less a work uniform (standard uniform of the Army, Air Force and the Home Guard.

    But nice catch! Haven't seen so many of those uniforms outside Norway. Smile



    Last edited by Berserk92 on Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Current issue M98

    Post by mylle on Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:50 pm

    Great catch!I love it.The colors are great.Good job! Wink
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    Re: Current issue M98

    Post by ripcord on Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:49 pm

    An M04...Hmmm..

    Thanks for your comments Berserk92 . Do appreciate the info.  

    No one here on the forum  has really documented the designation of modern Norwegian camouflage  uniforms yet.  

    I've seen the ripstop uniforms called M02..  M04..and designation for the desert non ripstop is also a mystery..

    Would be lovely if someone with knowledge of the designations would enlighten us..

    Alex,  thanks ;  colors  are indeed fantastic..  



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    Re: Current issue M98

    Post by CollectinSteve on Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:43 am

    Nice score!!

    Yeah, I tried to get a discussion going about the designations in the desert camo thread. Here's the repeat of it:

    1. M2003? = 1st pattern camo, smooth cloth, no arm pockets, use of buttons for various things. 2003 only date seen.
    2. M2004 (early)? = 1st pattern camo, smooth cotton, two arm pockets, heavy use of velcro. 2004 only date seen.
    3. M2004 (mid)? = identical to above, but 2nd pattern camo and different cloth. 2006 earliest, 2008 latest seen.
    4. M2004 (late)? = identical (or pretty close to it!) to above, but ripstop cloth. 2006 earliest, 2012 latest seen.
    5. M???? = ripstop with slant chest pockets and no lower pockets. 2008 only date seen.

    The interesting thing is that the slant chest version is issued in parallel with the standard straight pocket type. I did not see the slant type in the official Norwegian documentation.

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    Re: Current issue M98

    Post by B.M.F on Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:24 am

    I'm not sure about all the variations of the moderm uniforms, but here's the main fielduniforms for the army:

    Feltantrekk = Fieldoutfit.

    Feltantrekk 1: M75
    Feltantrekk 2: M98/M04
    Feltantrekk 3: M02 membraneuniform
    Feltantrekk 4: M02 desert
    Feltantrekk 5: M02 desert, membrane.

    Source: Norwegian armys uniformregulations.

    Army: https://forsvaret.no/fakta_/ForsvaretDocuments/H%C3%A6rens%20Uniformsbestemmelser%2003-2015.pdf

    Navy: https://forsvaret.no/fakta_/ForsvaretDocuments/Sj%C3%B8forsvarets%20uniformsbestemmelser.pdf

    Airforce: https://forsvaret.no/fakta_/ForsvaretDocuments/Luftforsvarets%20uniformsbestemmelseer.pdf

    As a sidenote, the norwegian military recently introduced a new rankingsystem. This is to get back to the old system professional NCO's. For decades sargeants could only stay in service until they reached 35 years old.

    New ranks: https://forsvaret.no/fakta_/ForsvaretDocuments/Gradsoversikt.pdf
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    Re: Current issue M98

    Post by CollectinSteve on Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:58 pm

    Thanks!  Yeah, M02... I keep making the mistake of saying M03.  

    OK, going through a bunch of pictures and sources, here's what I've come up with.  Additional info wanted!


    M02 Desert:

    1. 1st Model (initial) = 1st pattern camo, smooth cloth, no arm pockets, use of buttons for various things. 2003 only date seen.
    2. 1st Model (early) = 1st pattern camo, smooth cotton, two arm pockets, heavy use of velcro. 2004 only date seen.
    3. 1st Model (late) = identical to above, but 2nd pattern camo and different cloth. 2006 earliest, 2008 latest seen.
    4. 1st Model (late) Ripstop = identical (or pretty close to it!) to above, but ripstop cloth. 2006 earliest, 2012 latest seen.
    5. 2nd Model Ripstop = ripstop with slant chest pockets and no lower pockets. Pointed pocket flaps on both jacket and trousers.  2008 only date seen.

    M98 Temperate:

    1. 1st Model = smooth cloth, epaulets for rank, no arm pockets, use of buttons for various things.  2000 and 2001 dates seen.

    M04 Temperate:

    1. 1st Model (early) = same as M98 except single chest epaulet for rank, no shoulder epaulets, and velcro on arms.
    2. 1st Model (early) Ripstop = seems identical to 1st Model (early) except in Ripstop.
    3. 1st Model (late) = same as Early except Canadian buttons and small covered buttons on shoulders for brassards.  2007 date seen.
    4. 2nd Model Ripstop = ripstop with slant chest pockets and no lower pockets. 2008 only date seen.


    The big question I still have is if the "2nd Model Ripstop".  So far I've only seen these brand new and for sale from Ali-Baba.  I've never seen a picture of them being worn by actual Norwegian military personnel.  Can anybody show any proof that these uniforms are genuine and not Chinese fakes? It seems hard to believe that these are fakes, but it also is hard to believe that one can buy them off of Ali-Baba directly.

    By my count that is 8 unique genuine issue uniform variants + 2 questionable ones.

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    Re: Current issue M98

    Post by ripcord on Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:43 pm

    A not so short comment  about #4s

    I have an early 1st model desert ripstop set and  one in each pattern of  2nd model ripstop .

    They are all  manufactured by the same firm: Gulins Business Designs AB.

    The tags are identical . Only difference is size details.  

    The 1st model smock has  sizes in numbers ; the trousers have  Stor ( large ) written at the top of the label.
    The 2nd Model has both garments using labels with the word X Stor (X Large ) written at the top of the label.


    My first desert ripstop model set is a mix of early ( 06 trousers ) and later smock ( 08 ). We know these are legit.

    I believe the 2nd model  sets are also legit issue and not Chinese copies.

    Guess the only way to find  out is to order a couple of the Ali Babas Specials and dissect them..
    I have not personally seen any of them in the wild...


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    Re: Current issue M98

    Post by B.M.F on Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:28 pm

    A lot of norwegian uniforms are made in China. A few years ago there was a small "scandal" (at least according to the media). Newspapers had pics. of chinese recruits at a security company wearing norwegian uniforms.
    http://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/kina/kinesiske-rekrutter-i-uniformer-med-norske-flagg/a/10075457/

    This article tells how the norwegian army had to return 70 000 uniforms to China because of bad quality. No wonder norwegian uniforms turn up on chinese web stores. Also they copy everything, so hard to tell if real or not.

    http://www.framtiden.no/200912085076/aktuelt/bedrifters-samfunnsansvar/forsvaret-uten-kontroll.html
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    Re: Current issue M98

    Post by CollectinSteve on Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:10 pm

    I think BMF might have answered the question!  Here's what we know so far:

    1.  The uniforms appear to be legitimate Norwegian contract.  Too detailed to be random cheap copies IMHO.

    2.  The labels of every piece I've seen are dated 2008, yet ripstop versions of M02 designs were produced in 2008 through to at least 2012.  Presumably M04 design as well, but I don't have pics of labels to confirm that.

    3.  The uniforms passed around are brand new, available on Ali-Baba, and seen in things like the Chinese hand-to-hand combat propaganda (I've seen others like this on my own).

    4.  A news article states that 70,000 uniforms were "returned" to China due to bad quality.  It might be the 70,000 number is for the total contract which was cancelled, not how many uniforms were actually shipped to Norway and returned to China.  But in any case, there's evidence that uniforms were produced in China for Norwegian government approved purchase and were rejected.

    5.  Nobody has yet shown these uniforms were, or are, in use by Norwegian forces.

    These are the facts we have before us right now.  New facts can come in at any time and either confirm or deny the theory that these suspect ripstop uniforms are legit or not.  With that in mind, based on these facts on hand today I think the following is consistent with what we know:

    Around 2007 the Norwegians decided to change the uniform to a new design, breaking with the decades old US BDU style of the M98.  As with many new uniform designs, it consisted of two slant chest pockets and no lower pockets.  An established Norwegian defense contractor had them produced in China, therefore they look official in every meaningful way.  However, they were subsequently rejected by the Norwegian government and the design itself was not pursued further.  Since 2008 the traditional M02/M04 design has remained in production.

    The Chinese contractor stuck with the rejected uniforms have been slipping them out into the marketplace as it can.  This includes selling them to the Chinese government and directly to customers through online shops such as Ali-Baba.  It is unclear how many of these uniforms actually exist, but certainly it's a significant number (several hundred minimum).

    To me this looks very similar to the infamous 2004 Danish uniforms made by a Polish company.  They have HMAK labels on them and are stitch for stitch the same as genuine Danish items.  However, the Danish government rejected them due to color bleed in the cloth.  They are readily available on the open market and not subjected to the same kinds of controls as approved Danish items.

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    Re: Current issue M98

    Post by B.M.F on Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:43 pm

    Steve

    I just read the newsarticle briefly, but the uniforms were returned to China because of sloppy work (bad seams etc..). Apearantly the chinese had tried to speed up production to save money. The manufacturer first refused to take the uniforms back, but did set up a "repaire shop" in an abondoned factory. So as I get it some uniforms were accepted , and some weren't.

    If you go to the bottom of this page, then click the "JA, JEG AKSEPTERER BRUKSVILKÅRENE" button, you'll get into the armys media archive. Search for Afghanistan, and you'll get tons of pics. to look at. Maybe you'll find the uniform you're looking for.

    https://forsvaret.no/for-media/mediearkiv

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    Re: Current issue M98

    Post by Berserk92 on Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:24 pm

    I'm working on some kinda norwegian guide line of newer uniforms so I will make a own topic one day when I actuall have time and it is done/readable in English, not fancy but I guess it can clear some mess up.

    But I see alot of uniforms collectors and some in this forum has this uniform

    http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Norway-Army-Desert-camouflage-suit-Waterproof-Retardant-BDU-hunting-Airsoft-Military-uniform-Tactical-Paintball-suit-Shirt/1815482709.html


    Just want to tell you guys that this is not an issued uniform and has never been, not even ordered of the Norwegian Defence forces. It is a face/replica/humbug you name it.

    It's a copy of an Generation 3 tropic/jungleuniform that only comes in norwegian camo.

    So they have just used the same uniform cut as a gen 3 and made with surplus stock of Norwegian desert camouflage fabric that haven't been used.
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    Re: Current issue M98

    Post by ripcord on Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:20 pm

    B.M.F. Thanks for the link, great quantity and quality ..

    Berserk92, thanks for your comments; it's good to have this conversation..


    The great majority of photos are taken in an environment where winter clothing is required. so that is not of much help..

    Most often seen is the M98's successor, the M04; a non ripstop type utility/ combat uniform.

    There are  a few photos of a Parachute qualified General in a ripstop uniform I have never seen before.

    Perhaps it is the Gen 3 tropic/jungle Berserk92 is referring to.

    Those of us who have the slant pocket types may indeed have fakes/ commercial pieces..

    That would of course suck, but it would prove what Steve has been saying all along.

    While I hope he and others are wrong, I can understand reality points to doubt these are issue. One thing I can say: the tags, fake or not, look good...


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    Re: Current issue M98

    Post by CollectinSteve on Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:04 am

    Hi Sal,

    I'm sorry too Sad I've been hedging my bets and keeping an eye open for one of these sets for my own collection "just in case". Well, up until today. Now I have no interest in it unless things change dramatically from what this thread has discussed.

    I agree with you that this is probably the worst case of "fake" I've seen in a very long time. Either the prime contractor for a legitimate Norwegian order used left over stock of parts, including labels, or the sub contractor that made the labels cranked out a bunch for someone.

    Unfortunately, China is capable of making items that can fool even the most aware and observant collector. It's just that normally there's a tip off. In this case I see two tip offs:

    1. There is no evidence the Norwegians ever used this uniform. Not in pics from the field, not from official Norwegian military information, not from Norwegian service personnel, etc. The uniforms in question were produced 8 years ago. Even if only special forces wore them we should know about it. Especially since special forces are disproportionally photographed in Afghanistan.

    2. This uniform doesn't make sense. It makes sense to have a lighter weight "hot weather" uniform in place of the woodland type (that's pretty common), but why have an alternate for the desert uniform? By definition the desert is a hot weather environment, so having two totally different cuts for the same purpose makes no sense. One in heavier cloth and one in lighter weight cloth, but otherwise the same design, makes sense (Hungarians, Bulgarians, Slovenes, etc. do this). But not two designs concurrently.

    The uniform lineage is what first raised my suspicions. But it was the totality of the doubts that really got me thinking these uniforms are fakes.

    Can anybody point me to pictures of the Gen 3 jungle uniform? I tried to find some and failed.

    With this information in mind, here is my revised list of uniforms:

    M02 Desert:

    1st Model = 1st pattern camo, smooth cloth, no arm pockets, use of buttons for various things. 2003 only date seen.
    2nd Model (early) = 1st pattern camo, smooth cotton, two arm pockets, heavy use of velcro. 2004 only date seen.
    2nd Model (late) = identical to above, but 2nd pattern camo and different cloth. 2006 earliest, 2008 latest seen.
    3rd Model (Ripstop) = identical (or pretty close to it!) to above, but ripstop cloth. 2006 earliest, 2012 latest seen.

    M98 Temperate:

    Only Model? = smooth cloth, epaulets for rank, no arm pockets, use of buttons for various things. 2000 and 2001 dates seen.

    M04 Temperate:

    1st Model = same as M98 except single chest epaulet for rank, no shoulder epaulets, and velcro on arms.
    2nd Model (Ripstop) = seems identical to 1st Model except in Ripstop.
    3rd Model = same as Early except Canadian buttons and small covered buttons on shoulders for brassards. 2007 date seen.

    I have 5.5 out of 8. I'm missing M04 2nd and 3rd Models and the trousers for M02 1st Model. I am now motivated to change things to be 8 out of 8 Wink

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    M04 Temperate Rip Stop

    Post by fourtycoats on Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:08 am

    Here is an M04 rip stop uniform which came directly from a Norwegian soldier. As you can see from the labels, it was made by Cato Ringstad not by Gulins Business Designs AB. The shirt is very small and the pants are very large. The person from whom I obtained it said that it was the only one he had ever seen at the time. Notice that the chest and arm pockets are much larger than the Gulins ones.

    Shirt Photo.




    Shirt Label






    Pants Label


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    Re: Current issue M98

    Post by mylle on Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:27 am

    Now the confusion is perfect! Laughing Laughing
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    Re: Current issue M98

    Post by ripcord on Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:36 am

    Hmmmm..





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    Re: Current issue M98

    Post by Berserk92 on Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:43 am

    fourtycoats wrote:Here is an M04 rip stop uniform which came directly from a Norwegian soldier. As you can see from the labels, it was made by Cato Ringstad not by Gulins Business Designs AB. The shirt is very small and the pants are very large. The person from whom I obtained it said that it was the only one he had ever seen at the time. Notice that the chest  and arm pockets are much larger than the Gulins ones.


    What you have there my gentleman is an Tropic uniform model nr3/version3/generation 3, in Norway we just call them gen.3. tropic uniform

    It is two models of this one, on from Cato Ringstad and one from Gulins Business Design AB

    Gulins Business Design AB is the one that delivers uniforms today. Cato Ringstad have delivered before.


    It exist 6 Tropic uniforms, Gen 1,2,3,4,5 and the Taiga Jungle uniform that FSK/HJK has issued.




    About the desert uniform that looks like an gen3 tropic uniform is a fantasy/fake/should't exist uniform. Sorry to say but that is the fact.
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    Re: Current issue M98

    Post by CollectinSteve on Wed Mar 30, 2016 4:15 pm

    More progress Smile

    OK, so now we see a genuine Gen 3 Tropical set. Thanks Fourtycoats! So the question is if the 2008 Gulins Business Designs non-desert uniform is legitimate or if that is fake or if it is only the desert version that is fake.

    Another question is why the tropical uniform is not featured in the official Norwegian military documentation. Shouldn't it be?

    Updated list:

    M02 Desert:

    1st Model = 1st pattern camo, smooth cloth, no arm pockets, use of buttons for various things. 2003 only date seen.
    2nd Model (early) = 1st pattern camo, smooth cotton, two arm pockets, heavy use of velcro. 2004 only date seen.
    2nd Model (late) = identical to above, but 2nd pattern camo and different cloth. 2006 earliest, 2008 latest seen.
    3rd Model (Ripstop) = identical (or pretty close to it!) to above, but ripstop cloth. 2006 earliest, 2012 latest seen.

    M98 Temperate:

    Only Model? = smooth cloth, epaulets for rank, no arm pockets, use of buttons for various things. 2000 and 2001 dates seen.

    M04 Temperate:

    1st Model = same as M98 except single chest epaulet for rank, no shoulder epaulets, and velcro on arms.
    2nd Model (Ripstop) = seems identical to 1st Model except in Ripstop.
    3rd Model = same as Early except Canadian buttons and small covered buttons on shoulders for brassards. 2007 date seen.

    M04 Tropical:

    1st Model = two slant chest pockets, two arm pockets. Pocket flaps are pointed. 2006 date confirmed.

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    Re: Current issue M98

    Post by Berserk92 on Wed Mar 30, 2016 4:42 pm

    It's only the desert one that is fake.
    But I wouldn't trust to buy the woodland tropic one. Because can't be sure what the reasen is why the fabric has sold them out. Can it be manufacturing defects)
    Or didn't them hold up to the specs/ standards/ demands from the Norwegian defence force? And that the army didn't want them?


    The reason for the Tropic uniform isn't in the uniform regulation, is because just some few has it issued. But it is in the same family as the M-04 woodland and it is being used the same way.  

    If this actual make any sense. Not so easy to translate things like this to english.

    Today every work uniform is called M04.
    M-04 woodland
    M-04 Desert
    M-04 Navy flame retardant Rip-stop
    M-04 khaki flame retardant Rip-stop
    M-04 khaki (for civilians) Rip-stop.
    M-04 Tropic

    And the goretex uniforms is called

    M-02 Woodland
    M-02 Desert.
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    Re: Current issue M98

    Post by CollectinSteve on Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:22 pm

    Thanks for the additional information! Yes, I had the same bad thoughts about the 2008 tropical uniform as you do. It's identical to a fake, so maybe it is also a fake. It is also possible a small number were made by Gulins Business Design AB to try and convince the Norwegian government to place an order for them. But that would require documentation to prove.

    Question about the tropical uniform. You say it is Gen 6. How many of Gen 1-5 were in camouflage?

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    Re: Current issue M98

    Post by Berserk92 on Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:49 pm

    CollectinSteve wrote:Thanks for the additional information!  Yes, I had the same bad thoughts about the 2008 tropical uniform as you do.  It's identical to a fake, so maybe it is also a fake.  It is also possible a small number were made by Gulins Business Design AB to try and convince the Norwegian government to place an order for them.  But that would require documentation to prove.

    Question about the tropical uniform.  You say it is Gen 6.  How many of Gen 1-5 were in camouflage?

    Steve


    I wouldn't go so far to call them fake ones. But it is something that isn't right with them I think we can say.


    Tropical uniform
    1,2 and 5 is "cotton" type ish

    3 and 4 is in rip stop.

    This is Taiga's own Jungle uniform, it's in rip stop.
    http://www.coldskills.com/field-shirt-nr-nor-wl-p-1153-c-509.aspx


    Here you can see photos of 3 uniforms that I have in my collection. 1,3 and 4.
    http://milforum.net/showthread.php/52595-Interessante-nyhetslinker/page143?highlight=tropeuniform

    Here in this video you can see gen 5 on Lieutenant Colonel Furulund
    http://www.tv2.no/2014/01/01/nyheter/5191710#.UsSL0PTuKad

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    Re: Current issue M98

    Post by Berserk92 on Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:40 am

    CollectinSteve wrote:

    Question about the tropical uniform.  You say it is Gen 6.  How many of Gen 1-5 were in camouflage?

    Steve


    Not sure what you are saying her?

    I say the desert one is a fake one, a copy of an gen 3 tropic.

    tropic uniforms is only in woodland camo

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    Re: Current issue M98

    Post by ripcord on Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:09 pm

    My theory on this uniform is that it is a contract overrun and surplus sold off to the public.

    I would love to know if these have any tags..  Faked originals or minimal commercial tags  as we have seen with the overrun, or rejected M90 Ls recently.

    Notice they were quite pricey when available..




    http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Norway-army-jungle-camouflage-suit-set-BDU-military-uniform-paintball-suit-hunting-combat-uniform-tactical-military/1701201675.html


    Have no clue about the desert uniform but will dig further.




    S
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    CollectinSteve
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    Re: Current issue M98

    Post by CollectinSteve on Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:29 pm

    Berserk92 wrote:Not sure what you are saying her?
    tropic uniforms is only in woodland camo

    You answers my question perfectly Smile I was wondering if any of the 5 variants were in a solid color.

    ripcord wrote:My theory on this uniform is that it is a contract overrun and  surplus  sold off to the public.

    I would love to know if these have any tags..  Faked originals or minimal commercial tags  as we have seen with the overrun, or rejected M90 Ls recently.

    Notice they were quite pricey when available..

    Ouch! Yes, very pricey.

    Whatever these uniforms are, they are not complete fakes. No Chinese company would invest in making such a fake item. But that doesn't mean these specific uniforms were official kit. There's several possibilities to explain their existence.

    Steve

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    Re: Current issue M98

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      Current date/time is Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:02 am