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Dom Hyde
tlundberg1
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    German Leibermuster M45 Jacket

    tlundberg1
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    German Leibermuster M45 Jacket Empty German Leibermuster M45 Jacket

    Post by tlundberg1 Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:51 pm

    A wonderful example of this rare camouflage jacket.

    German Leibermuster M45 Jacket 51417552522_8d2ba4266c_b

    German Leibermuster M45 Jacket 51419058359_df16366a93_b

    German Leibermuster M45 Jacket 51419279485_33b81d3168_b

    With the lining turned back, showing the original coloration (unlike the exterior faded colors)
    German Leibermuster M45 Jacket 51419058264_7c6f8e525f_b

    German Leibermuster M45 Jacket 51417552162_d78a680ee9_b

    RB Number
    German Leibermuster M45 Jacket 51417552017_bc12712fc2_b

    Back of collar
    German Leibermuster M45 Jacket 51418555723_3b591a0f1d_b

    Rope ties
    German Leibermuster M45 Jacket 51419277570_e53b1aa1f2_b

    Foliage loops on front and back
    German Leibermuster M45 Jacket 51418555803_3b02ed1613_z  German Leibermuster M45 Jacket 51417552097_dc10074ec2_z  

    Metal Buttons
    German Leibermuster M45 Jacket 51417552547_3a5fa197d0_z  German Leibermuster M45 Jacket 51418296461_b767050361_z

    Pressed paper or maybe bakelite buttons at cuff closures
    German Leibermuster M45 Jacket 51417552532_4ac127d872_z

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    Dom Hyde
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    Post by Dom Hyde Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:47 am

    Awesome! I imagine that even the unexposed fabric will have faded slightly from age and chemical reactions, so I'm picturing the green as slightly darker back in the day.
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    German Leibermuster M45 Jacket Empty Leibermuster

    Post by gnashernz Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:49 am

    Not a good one
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    Post by CollectinSteve Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:26 pm

    OK, Thom... this was good enough to get me out of my semi-retirement for a comment or two.  Congratulations Wink

    You got this from the Polish guy on eBay, yes?  I took a look at it and was impressed with the original looking condition, but I couldn't find anything that matched it.  Granted, I don't have a lot of source material to look at and I'm sure there were quick-and-dirty variations during the end of war chaos.

    gnashernz seems to think this isn't a legit piece.  I'm curious to know more.  Have you posted this to WAF?  Those guys will have educated opinions for sure.

    Steve

    P.S. obviously I'm not dead Wink Just insanely busy for the last year+

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    Post by gnashernz Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:07 am

    Well for starters its not HBT which is what the only examples are made of, this must be the only one in existence of this smooth cotton, the construction is different - yet you think this good?
    The RB stamping looks to have been pieced together by individual stamps rather than it being one actual stamp, the M45 does not look right either, I'm thinking its been given a collector terminology rather than it being a depot stamp.
    Put it on WAF, love to hear the comments.
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    Post by Doc_KeystoneDiv Sat Oct 07, 2023 11:29 am

    Hi, new forum member here, this is a really interesting piece, i have a particular fondness for Leibermuster. What feedback have you received on the originality of this? Its a very nice piece, but respectfully i have a few concerns
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    Post by Sanglier Sat Oct 07, 2023 1:48 pm

    There was a twill Leibertarn jacket with WSS insignia posted on WAF in 2016, which was judged likely authentic, as its insignia was confirmed real, and the printed pattern matched that of known originals. On the other hand, the example that started this thread is printed in a pattern that matches exactly a present-day commercial pattern, which was once available on Spoonflower (copyrighted by Richard Montgomery). It is still being used to make fashion garments right now, for instance this:

     https://camohq.com/products/german-world-war-2-wwii-leibermuster-camo-unisex-hoodie-hq

    Either this jacket is the grand daddy of the commercial pattern, or, more likely than not, given the other issues that had already been pointed out, it is a relatively recent creation.

    It's worth remembering that the original Leibertarn, as well as some of the early Swiss derivatives, were printed using different sized rollers for different colors, causing the latter to overlap at different intervals, virtually eliminating repetitions in their alignment (the exact repeats happen over dozens of yards rather than dozens of inches). Indeed, that was one of the main claims in Leiber's original patent! The modern commercial tribute pattern doesn't have this feature. The fact that the pattern on this jacket matches the Montgomery drawing exactly in terms of color alignment is pretty good evidence that it IS the Montgomery drawing.

    German Leibermuster M45 Jacket 7QYnFT5
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    Post by tlundberg1 Sat Oct 07, 2023 3:19 pm

    Thanks for the detailed analysis! Seems like that answers any questions about it
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    Post by Sanglier Sat Oct 07, 2023 4:50 pm

    Just to close the loop, here is a side by side comparison of how two blocks of Montgomery drawing would have looked next to two continuous blocks of the original pattern (extracted and "flattened" from a very large tarp someone had posted on WAF some years ago), scaled to match one another using the large black features as reference:

    German Leibermuster M45 Jacket 0lw4xqI


    Montgomery did a pretty good job, obviously, but the differences are pretty obvious as well. Other than the asynchronous repeats between the black, green, red, and faint black features that made the original look so "organic", which Montgomery could not reproduce using his consolidated block pattern, he also did some weird stuff on the far right 1/6th - 1/5th of the block that is not present on the original; which might be an artifact of his working with incomplete samples.

    Regarding the RBNr, there is an online reference now, where we can verify whether the number makes sense (if a jacket has an RBNr from a shoe maker, we would know to stay away). The list may not be 100% complete, and future fakers will probably be a lot more careful stamping their products, but it's infinitely better than nothing. https://reichsbetriebsnummer.com/en/database.php The number inside this particular jacket is not in the database. It alone may not mean anything, but notice how the person stamping it used an "O" instead of an "0", something that is quite improbable if the stamp had been professionally made as a single unit?
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    Post by CollectinSteve Tue Oct 10, 2023 12:09 am

    And this is why I don't mess around with WW2 German items. There are people willing to put more effort into creating believable fakes then I have time/energy to put into detecting them. I'll stick with postwar stuff Smile

    Steve

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