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    BW Stuff

    TennoHeikaNate
    TennoHeikaNate
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    Name : Nate
    Location : USA
    Registration date : 2013-10-17
    Number of posts : 321

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    Post by TennoHeikaNate Fri Dec 16, 2022 8:00 am

    I'll try to keep this chronologically ordered as best I can, but no promises!
    This time however, I will be doing a separate post for my BGS stuff afterwards, and keeping this thread solely for the BW items
    as I think BGS kit deserves its own recognition, and after doing my South African dump thread I realized I probably should have separated
    the Homelands items from the SADF/SANDF and SAP/SARP stuff.
    Anyway, here we go!


    Starting off with the itchy wool "Filzlous" uniform, with a coat whose date and maker I forgot, that had an American baseball card and someone's
    phone number and address written on a piece of paper in the pocket, a pair of trousers dated 3-1962, and the side cap dated 1967.
    Naturally I forgot to take a pic of the whole set together and some new pics of the coat.

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    A set of the beloved "Splinter" camouflage, in pretty typical condition.
    The jacket's tag is a bit too faded to read the maker or date, but is named to "Pi. Houl" of "6. Gruppe".
    Fairly worn and shredded but overall surprisingly not really missing many buttons or pieces. The hood is not original to the jacket,
    it's a pretty crispy condition one I purchased separately from another collector and added to it for display.
    The trousers appear to have been made by "RKK" in II/56. Sadly the trousers suffered an even harder life than the jacket;
    it appears someone cut off both the leg cargo pockets to patch some massive holes and tears in the legs. Besides that and the heavy
    fading and a couple missing buttons it's otherwise fairly intact.

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    An interesting "Amoebatarn" zeltbahn. I can't find any makers mark or date, but this one is in pretty good condition.
    It has been curiously modified, however. A savvy tailor or soldier with a lot of free time cut a neck shaped arc in one side of the zeltbahn,
    and cut and sewed the carrying bag to fit into the arc to work as a permanent reversible hood when wearing the zelt as a poncho. The name "Herbst" appears to be written on it.
    I also have an empty pole bag for it, made by VWS in 1956.

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    A curious pullover smock made out of an amoebatarn zelt, with two patch chest pockets and a drawstring sewn to the hem.
    There's remnants of Wehrmacht insignia having been sewn onto the left sleeve and collar at one point, so I'm guessing it was somebody's old
    WW2 reenactment or movie thing.

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    A compression bandage, dated April 1963.
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    A very cool helmet and one of my favorite groupings I've ever come across, this is a West German copy of the US M1938 tanker helmet, sometimes called the
    "USAEURO" helmet. I purchased this from a man who in turn received it from a BW tank commander when he had retired, along with
    a pair of US SWD goggles he had worn with it, and his unit patches and pocket fobs from units he served in.
    It's a size 60 and I recall there being a 67 somewhere on it, possibly the date?
    From what I've read, apparently the failed 1956 rollout of the US T56-6 tanker helmet to replace their M38 helmets which they had already
    ceased production of caused a shortage of tanker helmets for US tankers, leading to many having to use the German copies until the T56-6 finally
    rolled out sometime around 1961.
    It also came with a pair of tinted goggle lens with very short velcro tabs on the side for attaching them that don't go to the SWD's, but
    I annoyingly seem to have misplaced the pic, I'll take another of them later to see if anyone can ID them.

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    And his unit patches and pocket fobs, starting with the School of Armored Combat Troops (SgepKpfTr) where he taught recruits
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    10th Panzer Division
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    8th Mountain Tank Battalion "Gebirgs-Panzerbataillon 8"
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    10th Tank Destroyer Company (Panzerjägerkompanie 10)
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    And a Shiloh Training Camp fob, from when he did joint training there.
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    Now some 60's-80's webbing and field equipment, starting with a bread spread/condiment/butter can dated V-1964.
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    A later model breadbag, dated 4-1983 with an illegible name.
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    A pair of canteen/cup sets, some mixed parts but one canteen is dated 1968 and the other 1982
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    An Esbit stove, named to Pierre. Not sure if dates can be discerned from these.
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    A bi-folding E-tool with pick end, dated 1964 with its leather carrier.
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    A field webbing pack, made by M.S.L. in 10-1962.
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    A basic set of belt, suspenders/yoke, and earlier style G3 magazine pouches from their 60's-70's Koppeltragegestell/Koppeltragesystem,
    sometimes nicknamed the ''Titten-Tragegestell'' webbing.
    I didn't take detailed photos of any of these parts unfortunately, so I'll have to do that sometime in the future.

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    A set of the late model magazine pouches, made of a thicker rubber and more rigid than the earlier models.
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    A Kampfmesser 68, made by HSK in 1970. Named to "Bie". From what I've heard, these weren't all that well liked. I was always
    puzzled why the BW did not issue a knife-type bayonet for the G3 like Norway did. I've read that they existed, but I have never seen one.

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    And the webbing pieces together, nearing a complete set, close enough that I'd like a mannequin to display it all on with a uniform.
    Unfortunately the pic with the KM68 turned out blurry.

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    A very cool GM54 "Gummimaske 54" (Rubber Mask 1954), dated 1962 and I think was made by Auer.
    It is very similar to the WW2 GM30/38 masks, and has a metal carrying canister that is slightly larger but still very similar to the WW2 types.
    It also came with the original FE 55 filter, although they are known to contain asbestos.
    Unfortunately the rubber coating of the mask is starting to suffer from permanent setting, and I didn't have my foam display head before I took these pics.
    The canister also unfortunately does not have any of the accessories that would come with the kit.

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    An M62 Stahlhelm, dated 1981. I also bought a net and pair of folding tinted goggles for it. The goggles were made by Winter in 1966,
    and the case is named to Herter. The goggles and their case are a near copy of the WW2 Augenschützer 42 folding goggles, as are several other similar copies
    used by countries like Sweden and the Netherlands.
    I also have a reversible Flecktarn/snow cover for this, but haven't taken a pic of it yet.

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    A very cool, highly personalized Helm1a1ll or M1A1LL (Also sometimes called M1971/M71) "Luftlandetruppe" Airborne Stahlhelm.
    This one belonged to a man who had a lot of time and jumps under his belt. It is named to a "Krager" of the LLPiKp 260 "Luftlandepionierkompanie 260"
    (Airborne Pioneer Company), and he also marked the number of jumps he made and from what aircraft:
    13 from a Transall C-160
    7 from a "CH" (Probably a CH-53G)
    3 from a "Bell" (Probably a UH-1D)
    For a total of 23 jumps.
    I can't find a manufacturer or date but we can guess it was used in the 80's; he acquired a US woodland M1 cover for it, and what looks like
    maybe a French(?) "salad" ghillie camo net cover, and sealed them both on with an old tire inner tube in true Cold War era fashion. He also
    attached some sort of reflective silver material to the rear, which the camera flash caught and made appear white.

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    A couple of berets, both Bamberger Mutzen-Industrie made, V/85 for the maroon and V/1983 for the red
    Both badges missing unfortunately.

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    An orange Luftwaffe Fliegerkombi, 1978. My dad stationed in West Germany in the late 70's/early 80's said most German pilots he saw
    were wearing these along with their gray leather fliegerjacke.

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    Now, some good ol' moleskin items
    First, a parka with the liner, dated 1975. I only have this one pic for now. One flag was cut off, annoyingly.
    It's a somewhat earlier version with an exposed button front.

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    A fourth(?) model shirt, dated 1980. Old pic
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    Side/service cap, 1977. Very old pic.
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    A Luftwaffe moleskin service shirt, with insignia to an Airman Hoffmann of the 36th JaBoG (Jagdbombergeschwader/Fighter-Bomber Wing) ''Westfalen'', dated 9-1976.
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    Another service shirt, no insignia, 1988.
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    Trousers, not sure which model and the tag is gone unfortunately.
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    M43 style Feldmütze, dated May 1984.
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    Not moleskin but related, a Gebirgsjäger M43, dated 1988.
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    Full "sets" with the coat and the two service shirts.
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    Posted in the dedicated thread but I'll throw it again here, a 1982 "dated" TSR/Sturm feldmutze in the 80's trials bright,
    lime colored flecktarn. Very thin material, poorly sewn, with visible printing errors.

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    A pair of trousers from the 1984 Truppenversuch, which tested different materials IIRC. These are the Model B, which are a
    heavy cotton/wool blend.

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    And to end for today, a flecktarn shirt from the 1988 Truppenversuch, or Erprobung as the tag dictates.
    The 88 trials were for the new cut of the uniform, of which this was from the Model B uniform cut.
    Quite unique as you can see; it has all button features, no epaulets, high shoulder flag patches, velcro sleeve rank insignia (quite
    forward thinking when you look at it!) no sleeve field dressing pocket, and buttons and straps to roll the sleeves.
    Sadly, while this shirt at one point did have a plethora of insignia including the flags, name, ranks, and some skill/occupation badges, they've
    all been cut off this example.
    Here's a neat short video of Fallschirmjager in 1993, showing several of the Truppenversuch '88 uniforms in action.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcWOvl3Z-tg
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    Enjoy!
    -Nate
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    Post by Wolverine Sat Dec 17, 2022 5:06 pm

    Nice selection of material Nate, and some interesting photographs that I hadn't seen before.

    Does anyone here own an original early BW M1 helmet?
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    Post by mylle Mon Dec 19, 2022 12:56 am

    Very nice Truppenversuch blouse. Still miss some of those items.
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    Post by CollectinSteve Mon Dec 19, 2022 5:23 pm

    Well, if there is one way to get me to post after a couple of years... it's to show off his great stash of BW stuff Wink

    That's quite a good load of kit. Too much for me to comment on, but some quick comments:

    1. That picture of soldiers in Leibermuster you used to show off the helmet is not BW. Those are Belgian soldiers! First of all, Germany never used this uniform except for (as far as we can tell) a single PR photo session. It was a stand-in for Splittertarn which wasn't ready yet. Second, the guy to the right is in a British style tanker coverall. Germany never used such a thing. Third, Belgium also used the same US style helmet, with some being made by Germany and others France. See next comment.

    2. You might have a Belgian helmet. There's at least two that I can remember, one of which is distinctly made by France and the other by Römer (German helmet company). There's quite a bit of confusion about all of this as the German ones went to Belgium as part of war reparations, but apparently were also the ones used by the BW. The French ones also went to Belgium. All of these, I think, had clusters of small holes for vents. The ones with the larger vent holes, like yours, I don't remember their story. I have both types somewhere in my collection. Sorry... knowledge on these was always confusing to me and I don't remember even that now!

    67 = the shell size IIRC, not the year manufactured.

    3. I have a couple of spare TrVsu 84 Modell B jackets if you are interested. That seems to have been the most common one.

    4. The "TSR" hat you have is made from test printing of early 1970s "Flectarn Klein". Cheap cloth was used to make sure things would print correctly before running the real (far more expensive) cloth through the machines. They made quite a lot of test printings, but the cloth was never used for anything real. TSR = Sturm (now known as Mil-Tec). Sturm bought up the cloth, as they like to do, and made hats and 2 pocket shirts out of them. So it is an interesting, limited run commercial piece made from test fabric.

    5. Your gasmask is in much better shape than some I've had. I have one that you would need the jaws of life to spread out Wink I also assume yours smells terrible! I don't know if it is an anti-gas chemical coating or if it is just the rubber compound. Nasty either way.

    6. The M1 style FJ helmet is known as the M61 and was made in the 1960s (maybe also 1970s?) and used well into the 1990s. If you look on the inside of the liner you might see the manufacturing stamp. Though, of course, the liner could be a replacement given how many years these were used.

    That's all for now Wink

    Steve
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    Post by Wolverine Mon Dec 19, 2022 7:13 pm

    I agree with Steve about the Belgians. Another small giveaway that is just visible is the Belgian 37 pattern webbing belt that the men are wearing.

    Those gasmasks smell universally awful, I think as byproduct of the deteriorating rubber compounds. It is possible to open up the face piece for display with generous use of steam (wear heavy rubber gloves to avoid burns). Once the moisture evaporates and the rubber cools, it will remain fixed in the new position.

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    Post by TennoHeikaNate Tue Dec 20, 2022 4:51 am

    Thanks everyone for your comments! Andrew, unfortunately I haven't seen any BW M1s as far as I can remember. I wouldn't even know one if I saw one, I have no idea if they had their own markings or not.
    I checked the M61, and surprisingly the lining was made in 1993, though like Steve said it might have been replaced.

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    The mask certainly has a smell to it, but not overpoweringly bad IMO. I've definitely smelled worse ones. One of these days I'll take some better pics of it on my display head which should hopefully stretch and shape it out to a more presentable look.

    I might contact you sometime in the near(ish) future about one of those Modell B jackets Steve, I certainly wouldn't mind having one to compliment the trousers!

    Thanks for the correction on the Belgian pic! I thought the coverall looked unusual compared to other BW pics but I didn't even notice the P37 belts. The only actual stamp in the panzerhelm is the "60" on the rear of the lining. The inside of the shell looks like it has "67" written in soapstone but I can't exactly tell for sure. The explanation I heard up until this point was that the ones with multiple smaller vent holes were earlier models and these large vent hole ones were later, but I wasn't aware they were made in France. I can find no makers marks on this one, but as I said it came from an American veteran who in turn got it from a retired BW commander who used it, along with the SWD goggles and all his old unit patches and pocket fobs. He (the commander) also mentioned sometime in the mid-late 60's they had switched to another type of tanker helmet, which I assume was that leather one but I don't know for sure. I would have figured the Schutzmütze would have come out around that time but I didn't inquire further about the replacement helmet.

    I did come across this pic while researching the panzerhelms, was said to be "Dutch tankers with their Sherman Dozer, wearing M64 helmets, 1960", but now
    I'm not positive. I can't really see any vent holes on the helmet to the left so I assume they are the smaller vent hole model, at least his. In which case
    would suggest these might be the French made ones. Besides that I'm not familiar with Dutch berets/badges to be able to tell.

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    Here's a poor photo of the mystery tinted goggle lens/cover? thing that came with the panzerhelm grouping. It's too big to fit into SWDs and only has the two small
    strips of hook side velcro to attach them to some sort of goggle model, though I have no idea what. No markings anywhere.

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    And here's the only other shot of BW leibermuster I've found, which I assume to be from the same PR session Steve mentioned:
    "Jul. 07, 1955 - The new uniforms of the German forces have been shown this weekend in Bonn."

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    Post by CollectinSteve Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:41 pm

    True BW M1 helmets are hard to find.  There's quite a bit of controversy about them in that nobody seems really sure if 100% of the BW helmets were made for the BW or purchased from abroad.  Quite a lot of the early equipment and weapons came straight from US surplus stocks, so my assumption is the reason BW marked helmets are so hard to find is that there was a lot of US helmets mixed in.  But that's just my theory Wink  BW manufactured pistol belts are even more controversial as only a few have ever been confirmed made in Germany.

    The theory of early and late models of the US "football" style tanker helmets is certainly plausible.  Somewhere in my collection I have three, with one having lots of French manufacturing marks, a second German, and a third without any as with yours.

    And yes, those two pictures at the bottom are from the same photoshoot as the other known Leibermuster pictures came from.   Here's the most well known shot:

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    You can see that the same guy in this picture is the same guy in the picture above.

    I feel fine not citing the page where I got this particular copy of the image because I found several of my personal images on the guy's page that he didn't give me credit for, so fair is fair Wink

    Steve

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    Post by CollectinSteve Wed Dec 21, 2022 5:16 pm

    Oh yeah, and armored crew helmets went in this order:

    1. US "football" style (very early, quickly discontinued)
    2. Filzlaus beret over hardened dome (similar to pre/early WW2)
    3. "Soviet" style padded (continues to this day, though designs have changed over time)

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    Post by TennoHeikaNate Thu Dec 22, 2022 12:45 am

    Ah, that makes sense. Seems to be a common issue when a country starts making their own copies of some equipment from another, the early copies tend to be very hard to differentiate from the foreign donors.
    I've seen a few of the current style leather padded panzerhelms in some collections but I don't recall ever seeing one for sale for some reason. Several of the M38 copies and Schutzmutze berets though. I haven't had luck getting the berets however, I have an incredible streak of losing every single one I've ever bid on BW Stuff 1f605
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    Post by Wolverine Thu Dec 22, 2022 2:11 am

    I believe that the crewmen with the dozer are indeed Dutch, based on the appearance of the beret badge. However, someone who knows Dutch tank suits might be able to say for sure.

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    Post by Wolverine Thu Dec 22, 2022 2:36 am

    Further to the BW M1 helmet question, I don't doubt that some US-made helmets were issued, but according to Lothar Schuster's book on BW uniforms and equipment, the BW also secured M1 helmets from Belgian sources. Ultimately, the shells came from Linnemann & Schnetzer and the liners from Romer and Schuberthwerk. I haven's ever seen a confirmed BW example up close, so I am not sure what the markings look like, compared to typical production for the Belgians (I have ordinary Belgian helmets/liners from L & S and Schuberth).
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    Post by CollectinSteve Thu Dec 22, 2022 5:27 am

    I know that advanced BW collectors in Germany struggle to find genuine shells and liners. As is typical, many of the surviving examples are mixes between the two, hinting that at some point the BW had a lot of shells from one source and liners from another. Or they have simply been slapped together by collectors over time. Who knows Wink

    For markings, the examples I have pics of show a simple white stamp with 3 digit manufacture code and a two digit date. I have a picture of a shell with white stamp with 4 digit manufacturing code, two digit date, and oddly "41" following. In none of these cases is there anything more, but it's a small sample.

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    Post by Kl1989 Mon Mar 27, 2023 5:29 am

    BW M1 were German made, the old US/Belgian theory unlikely based on known infos. It is possibly a misunderstanding of some sources like Baer, that the BW design was based on the "US/Belgian helmet". Shells were made by 2 makers (Quist and LS), liners by 5 different makers. Quist and LS shells have small differences, so can be identified even if maker stamps are overpainted/missing. Some were sold in 60s to other countries like Spain and refurbished, liners wore out or were discarded, so probably reason are so rare now. For example multiple Quist M1 shells with new paint from Spain have surfaced in recent years, but Quist supposedly never produced for export, so appear to be BW surplus sent to Spain.

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    Post by Wolverine Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:04 am

    Kl1989 wrote:BW M1 were German made, the old US/Belgian theory unlikely based on known infos. It is possibly a misunderstanding of some sources like Baer, that the BW design was based on the "US/Belgian helmet". Shells were made by 2 makers (Quist and LS), liners by 5 different makers. Quist and LS shells have small differences, so can be identified even if maker stamps are overpainted/missing. Some were sold in 60s to other countries like Spain and refurbished, liners wore out or were discarded, so probably reason are so rare now. For example multiple Quist M1 shells with new paint from Spain have surfaced in recent years, but Quist supposedly never produced for export, so appear to be BW surplus sent to Spain.

    Do you have any documentary evidence?
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    Post by Kl1989 Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:30 am

    Baer ("Vom Stahlhelm zum Gefechtshelm", 1994, p.44-61) discuss the development of the BW M1 in detail and show the original technical specifications. Several US and Belgian helmets were acquired to study during the initial design stage, but not actually used. Actually list 6 makers for the liners, not 5 like remembered. The infos in the Schuster Bundeswehr book are less detailed.
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    Post by Wolverine Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:13 pm

    Okay, thank you for the source.
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    Post by TennoHeikaNate Sun Oct 01, 2023 3:10 am

    Another recent get, I've refrained from posting my flecktarn/tropentarn since that stuff seems to be fairly well documented and common to find and otherwise boring, but this one makes an exception I think.
    At least here in the States, flecktarn/tropentarn that still has the original insignia attached is quite uncommon to find, as it seems the Bundeswehr removes it before surplusing it out (at least through official channels).
    The most I'll ever find is a shirt with the ranks and maybe Waffenfarbe still attached, and only on very rare occasion a shirt may still have a nametape or Tätigkeitsabzeichen still attached.
    The exceptions are deployment shirts. I've seen a handful over the years that seem to have been brought back through trade during international deployments, particularly UN missions and Iraq/Afghanistan.
    This fleck shirt is dated 1997 and features "GERMANY" arched tabs over the flags which to my understanding are only for internationally deployed BW personnel, and it also has empty velcro spots for what look suspiciously like UN and a unit or perhaps KFOR/SFOR type patches.
    Additionally, it has Tätigkeitsabzeichen for a Stufe III, Gold "Rohrwaffenpersonal" which seems to be for 10 years of specialized service, and a "Das Abzeichen für Leistungen im Truppendienst in Gold" military proficency award.
    There's also a strange empty velcro spot directly on the pocket flap for what I would assume to be a third skill badge/award, but I'm not sure exactly.
    The German wiki page for Tätigkeitsabzeichen states that the BW allows up to two badges to be worn above the right chest pocket including job badges, and foreign badges are to be worn under the German one(s).
    So my guess would be that some sort of international skill or occupation badge was added while this soldier was deployed, and rather than removing, repositioning and resewing their Rohrnwaffenpersonal badge and the new foreign one, they simply added the velcro and slapped it beneath it.
    That said, this is all just conjecture on what I could find, so if anybody knows more about this or has any additional info it'd be greatly appreciated!


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    Post by CollectinSteve Mon Oct 02, 2023 12:16 am

    Yup, it is not common to find a jacket with badging still intact.  Even on German eBay they aren't seen very often.

    The most likely badge on the right breast pocket is a French jump qualification badge like this:

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    It is not uncommon for German soldiers to have this badge.  The velcro is about the right size for it, though it is not the correct shape.

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    Post by TennoHeikaNate Mon Oct 02, 2023 6:08 am

    Interesting, thanks for the insight Steve!
    Seems odd that a German soldier would wear French wings over his own FJ wings, unless because of the badge limit they would be more inclined to display the more exotic foreign wings?
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    Post by CollectinSteve Wed Oct 04, 2023 6:42 am

    True, I didn't think about the lack of any other indication that the soldier is from an airborne unit. BW jump wings would be above the pocket. OK, suggestion withdrawn Wink

    Well, whatever it is it is a foreign (non-BW) qualification badge of some sort.

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    Post by TennoHeikaNate Thu Dec 28, 2023 2:07 am

    Once again a very special thanks to Steve, one of his TrVsu 84 Modell B jackets to go with my lone trousers, this one with insignia to a Panzer Grenadier Hauptfeldwebel.
    I can see how by the mid-late 80's wool and wool-blend field uniforms were starting to show their age.


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    Post by CollectinSteve Thu Dec 28, 2023 6:05 am

    Cool! Glad that was helpful. The trousers are hard to find, that is for sure. I have all 5 versions of the jackets and I think I only have 3 trousers.

    Steve

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