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    Post by Keeker Tue May 07, 2024 2:27 am

    Thanks for sharing the video. I've one that is dated 1995. I've wondered about the rings but have never seen/heard of a groin guard and am somewhat skeptical but then again I've been wrong before.
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    Post by CollectinSteve Tue May 07, 2024 3:18 pm

    Wow! That's some interesting stuff Nate! In no particular order:

    1. I've never seen anything tagged for the German-French Brigade. They were one of the first to receive Flecktarn IIRC, so that might explain it. Maybe it was a unit purchase to get around the troubles the BW had getting the uniform issued. I mean, just picture the unit getting jackets and trousers but no hats!

    2. The tag on the shirt is interesting as it omits the manufacturer and the date, two things that should not be missing. Very odd, but there were a number of oddities in the early days. If the snaps are brass (as I think they are), this is what I've classified as the Type 1 variant. It was produced 1991/92. If the snaps are plastic then it's what I call Type 3. The Q number is consistent with items made by Köhler, so that was probably who made yours.

    3. The trousers are what I call Type 2 and it was produced from 1991-1993. There were common minor production changes for both jacket and trousers, but nobody cared about this and so lots of mixing and matching. I'm sure this is a matching set from a single soldier.

    4. I don't know what to make of the jump badge. To the best of my memory I don't think I've ever seen a badge on this cloth. It's also quite odd to have someone 18 years after the trials sticking it on his uniform.

    5. The frag vest is the first year of production. I don't know why, but this and helmet covers were produced well ahead of official adoption of the 5FTD Flecktarn pattern. The only other dated example I've got pictures of doesn't mention being a trials item (TruVsu) which is very un-German thing to do if it was experimental. They are very, very, very consistent with the labeling.

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    Post by CollectinSteve Tue May 07, 2024 3:44 pm

    Keeker wrote:Thanks for sharing the video. I've one that is dated 1995. I've wondered about the rings but have never seen/heard of a groin guard and am somewhat skeptical but then again I've been wrong before.

    I'm pretty sure I saw a groin guard that clipped onto the two rings, but if so it was likely only experimental.  I never understood the purpose of those rings either.  Funny how they would put them on for so many years without a readily apparent need for them.  Similar to the Canadians putting buttons on trouser button belt loops.  Ask a Canadian vet what they were for and you'll not likely get a solid answer!

    Another interesting thing about the video is that the guys are wearing standard rank sewn onto velcro instead of the experimental rank types design for those uniforms.  They were always in very short supply even during trials, so soldiers improvised.

    The most interesting thing in that video for me was the closeup of the two soldiers listening to the classroom instruction towards the end (link is queued to where I'm talking about).

    https://youtu.be/FcWOvl3Z-tg?t=197

    They are, I believe, wearing Panzerkombi as zippers can clearly be seen going all the way to the tips of their collars.  Maybe they couldn't source enough two piece uniforms for the unit and they made do with what they could get.

    Steve
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    Post by TennoHeikaNate Tue May 07, 2024 7:49 pm

    @Steve thanks very much for the info!
    To confirm/clarify some points:
    2.) Yes, all the snaps on both the shirt and trousers are brass with the black paint still on them.
    4.) It's also the first TruVsu fabric badge I've seen. My best guess is that, assuming it's original, the owner added it to also have a camouflage badge instead of a gray-olive green one, or maybe remaining stocks of TruVsu badges were given out to use them up in the early 90's.
    5.) Tophe shared on his thread, about a page back, this TruVsu 76 fleck jacket with a zip front, same as the later Bundesmarine Bordejacke, though it has epaulets/shoulder straps, which the men in the video do not have.

    BW Stuff - Page 2 Tophe_10

    The only zip-front flecktarn item without epaulets I've ever seen was the TruVsu 88 Flecktarn Panzerkombi seen here, unfortunately I don't remember whose collection this was from or what forum it was shared on, my guess is the FJ guys in that video are wearing these for some odd reason, maybe the kombi made a good garment for jumps?
    BW Stuff - Page 2 1988_t10
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    Post by CollectinSteve Wed May 08, 2024 12:58 am

    You should not get me started on TruVsu items because that's a rabbit hole I love going down Smile One of these days I'll get around to publishing a book on this topic.

    The picture of the zipper jacket is from 1976 TruVsu, so very unlikely it would be in use for the video. There were two jackets (Modell I and Modell ii) with GJ trousers. Some of the features are standard GJ so it seems the uniform was intended for GJ and wound up being used as a pattern for the Marine Bordenanzug. There are also OD versions of both jackets and probably the trousers. 1976 was also the year of the "Flecktarn Groß" trials. I have the two jackets and a set of Flecktarn Groß. The "Oliv" type is the rarest of all of these.

    As for TruVsu Panzerkombi there were at least 6 produced from 1987-1989 (two each year). These are some of the easier Flecktarn TruVsu items to get (there's one on German eBay right now, in fact) so it's totally plausible that this FJ unit got a hold of some. I have all 6 in my collection.

    See what you started? Smile

    Steve

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    Post by CollectinSteve Wed May 08, 2024 1:22 am

    Here's a thread about the TruVsu 76 items I posted on WAF back in 2016:

    https://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/forum/ken-jasper-international-militaria-forums/bundesrepublik-deutschland-1949-present/836470-marine-trvsu-76-marine-jackets#post7071423

    One of the reasons I need to do a book is I need something to reference when I revisit topics Smile

    In this old topic I mentioned that there was a similar jacket in 1988, which may be what we see in the video. However, it's not a jacket. Research and getting one for my collection indicates they adapted the Bordenjacke features into a parka, specifically Modell AI (I have BI and BII, but no proof of AII yet).

    So I will amend my previous theory that the two guys in the classroom were wearing parka shells of either AI and/or perhaps AII (if it exists).

    Now that I think about it, the 1976 GJ parka (which replaced the 1963-1973 Windjacke) and the Bodenjacke have a lot in common. The year is not likely a coincidence. The parka made the cut, the uniform did not. The GJ parka was produced all the way until Flecktarn was adopted. And guess what the Flecktarn parka is? Nearly the same as the GJ parka!

    To summarize... in 1976 the BW experimented with a replacement uniform for GJ (at a minimum) which produced the features that immediately went into the GJ Parka and later went into the Bordenjacke and late 1980s TruVsu items. It eventually survived as a continued Bordenjacke (in Sandfarbe vs. Blau) and the standard BW parka. The zippers were used by Flecktarn Panzerkombi as well.

    Again, rabbit hole Smile

    Steve

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    Post by TennoHeikaNate Sun Jun 02, 2024 6:33 am

    Sorry for the very delayed response!
    Unfortunately I've never been able to make a WA account, their registration never worked for me so I could never view the threads there...
    Interesting background on the GJ jacket, I don't think I've seen too many of them but looking now after reading your theory is quite enlightening!
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    Post by CollectinSteve Tue Jun 04, 2024 5:58 pm

    No problem. Beautiful thing about a forum like this is it's easy to pick up an old conversation again Wink

    Looking at the details of the Bordenjacke again, I am reminded that features of both the Modell I and Modell II jackets influenced the design. The zipper not being all the way to the lower hem is a feature of Modell I and the straight chest pockets are a feature of Modell II. Also, I think Modell I's zipper was single direction while Modell II is double direction. Probably some other things to note if I had them all out and in front of me.

    Steve

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