BGS Stuff

thanks for the pics and the effort you put in this thread. Nice stuff and pics.

Thank you Alex, means a lot! It does get annoying once I start making these threads when I realize how many pics I have that are poor quality or some I straight up forget to take, like detailed pics of features or tags and markings. I've got so much stuff in boxes now I can't remember what's where half the time.  

Thanks for your personal pics and the historical pics. Now I see that I can use my airsoft FAL with my BGS camo! I guess I never realized how long they used the stahlhelm.

Great collection and the photos, nice in colour. The D-rings on the rear of the jacket were for the bread bag? I am fascinated by some efforts to eliminate "web gear" by the use of clothing. I have a Swiss jacket which was for that purpose. I have loaded up the pockets with gear and gone for a hike and got a sore back. A belt helps to put some of the weight on the hips. Are there any photos with the troops using these D-rings for that purpose? Also, one of the nicest cam patterns I have seen and good to see the old FALs again, I get a lump in my throat for the good old days.

Besides the great pieces you have shown, the photos are outstanding!

Thanks for sharing.

That Bomberjacket from Miltec is still one I am trying to find. Great collection!

And doesn't the cut of the battlejacket/ combat shirt remind you of a BDU shirt, even though it probably predates it by about 15 years?

Thanks porkchop! Yes, there's quite some similarity there. I always thought the integrated rain cape/suspender slots on the combat coat was a really unique feature, the closest thing I could equate to it would be the Swiss TAZ jackets with their internal cape and straps that attach to the trouser buckles to distribute the weight.

TennoHeikaNate wrote:I always thought the integrated rain cape/suspender slots on the combat coat was a really unique feature, the closest thing I could equate to it would be the Swiss TAZ jackets with their internal cape and straps that attach to the trouser buckles to distribute the weight.

I see this feature as an evolution of the caped shoulder on the WSS tropical tunic, which was itself modeled after the caped shoulder on the Italian Sahariana coat. For many of these early post-war uniforms, it's as if the designers picked up where they had left off at the end of the war (I'm assuming they were mostly the same people, or apprentices thereof), only this time they were not in a hurry, nor were they running out of resources, so they went a little nuts cramming as many ideas into their creations as they could come up with.

The most elaborately constructed caped shoulder I know of is the one seen on their contemporary civil defense jackets, which were, in my view, the most complex and ridiculously over-built work garments ever produced. Labor must have been incredibly cheap and abundant back then for them to make something like this for a bunch of emergency rescue workers.

Thank you for pointing those out Sanglier, I've never seen one of those CD jackets before but now I can really see the similarities!
Looking at the Italian Sahariana/WSS tunic I can see the upper cape/pocket flap design, I start to see similarities with old trench coats with the upper rain cape flaps, which I believe are themselves evolutions of older 1800 period overcoats and cloaks that had separate rain capes that could be worn over the shoulders.

Great batch of pictures! BGS is of particular interest to me, so some feedback to follow

Most of the original BGS pictures are from the early 1970s, though you have some from the 1950s sprinkled in there too. From a uniform/kit standpoint the two periods have very little to do with each other as pretty much everything changed between the two periods.

The BGS vet that took and posted all those wonderful pictures of the 2nd Model camo parkas and jackets (sleeve pockets on left arm) in use should get an award of some sort For whatever reason I've found the 1950s pics much easier to come by.

Notice that there are no camouflage trousers in any of those shots because there weren't any. All use of camouflage trousers were used by 1st Model camo uniforms from 1957 through about 1963. For the period 1967-1976 wool (winter) or cotton (summer) trousers were used. They are difficult to find, for sure. Wool ones oddly easier than cotton. I have a spare wool set somewhere.

Finding verified BGS equipment is a challenge. Polizei used much of the same stuff but in different colors, which sometimes is the only way to distinguish between Polizei and BGS (or in some cases Berlin Polizei). If everything appears correct, BUND markings usually confirm it is BGS. However, BUND markings are on items made for THW and ZB organizations, so if the color is wrong and it is marked BUND it isn't BGS. Leather pieces are usually well marked as BGS. Y suspenders have the markings on the inside of the rear belt strap.

Then there is time period. Color changed after 1976 to a decidedly green color and it was standardized for all BGS and Polizei units, as were their uniforms. At this point things get trickier to differentiate between BGS and other organizations.

BGS used an E-Tool carrier similar to BW, but in black leather. Shovel is in graygreen color.

The belt was the standard black leather with 2 pronged metal buckle. This was used by BGS, Polizei, THW/ZB, Zoll, Justiz, and I think Frost as well. Which means there are TONS of these belts out there, but any one of them is not likely to be BGS specifically. As long as a belt is not marked for one of the other organizations, then IMHO it is fine to assume it is BGS. Nobody will know anyway as the belts are the same As with anything, though, it differed a little over time.

The BGS used graygreen shelter quarters during the 1960s through 1970s, not camouflage. Tons of them were on German eBay a few years back and my local surplus shop had the tent pole carriers filling a shopping cart. The Sumpftarn zeltbahns were not all that hard to find, but they have gotten pricier in the past 10 years. Still, you should be able to find one for far less than $350. Last ones produced were 1963 IIRC.

I have no idea what BGS used for gasmasks after the 1950s WW2 style went out of service (likely early 1960s). I don't think I've ever seen one in collector's hands. Which, come to think of it, is rather odd as they certainly had them available.

Well, that exercised some deep recesses of my brain well enough to get a good night's sleep tonight

Steve

The suspender slots in the Sumpftarn jacket goes back to the original 1st Model. The graygreen uniform between 1st and 2nd Model Sumpftarn had it as well, which isn't surprising since it was essentially the same jacket. The funny thing is that pictures from the 1st Model uniform time period showed BGS members preferring to wear their suspenders OVER the cape, not under it. It is very common to have significant damage to 1st Model jackets from shoulder rank buttons getting torn off from the shoulder straps. I've had jackets with the whole shoulder opened up because of it.

[quote="Sanglier"]

TennoHeikaNate wrote:The most elaborately constructed caped shoulder I know of is the one seen on their contemporary civil defense jackets, which were, in my view, the most complex and ridiculously over-built work garments ever produced. Labor must have been incredibly cheap and abundant back then for them to make something like this for a bunch of emergency rescue workers.

They were also extremely heavy! I had examples of 1950s ZB and THW uniforms at one point in my collecting time and I think they could have survived a direct hit from a nuclear weapon I would not want to have worn one of those on a summer rescue mission. The bib overalls plus that heavy jacket must have been extremely uncomfortable.

Steve

Steve, thank you very much for identifying the different equipments used by the BGS. Unfortunately I have a feeling a lot of them will be much harder and more expensive to find today compared to 20 or 30 years ago, but it gives a solid place to start!
I also have no idea what gas mask was used. I have at least one pic from what looks like the 70's of what appears to still be the GM54 type mask still being worn, but after that I'm not sure, along with whether or not the BGS had their own canister design or painted the normal BW GM54 canisters in their forest green color. I wouldn't be surprised if the BGS got large stocks of hand-me-down BW GM54s after the BW switched to the M65.
As I mentioned, I've got a large number (probably at least around 100) of BGS photos of both the Sumpftarn and old green uniforms and various equipments being worn and used if anybody would like me to make another reference pic thread for them.

For sure the early BGS used the WW2 style canister type gasmask. I have a couple of them. They are basically the same as Bundeswehr, but are distinctly marked BGS (or BUND) on the inside lid. Now I'm forgetting who used the cloth covered ones VERY early on. Got one of those as well

This type of gasmask was discontinued early 1960s, but of course old kit is hard to kill so it is possible some were used here and there later on. But it wouldn't be widespread.

Steve

CollectinSteve wrote:

They were also extremely heavy!  I had examples of 1950s ZB and THW uniforms at one point in my collecting time and I think they could have survived a direct hit from a nuclear weapon  I would not want to have worn one of those on a summer rescue mission.  The bib overalls plus that heavy jacket must have been extremely uncomfortable.

Steve

[/quote]

Yes, Steve, I still have a set of the woolen uniform that I got from you at the end of that “point in (your) collecting time”.

The buttoned-down vented convertible shoulders on these are certainly functional, but also contribute to the discomfort. With the reinforcement strips under the flap and behind the breast pocket, there are 4 layers of cloth at the front and 3 at the back where the flap is buttoned to the body, making for a junction that is both indestructible and unforgivingly stiff. Combine this with the old-fashioned high-and-tight arm hole, and the fact that the cape was tailored to fit closely to the shoulder rather than loosely draping over the latter, once the coat has been washed, the inevitably shrunken cape piece behaves very much like a tourniquet around your armpit when it’s buttoned down at both ends. For sure not something you’d want to feel when you are hot and sweaty and swinging a pickaxe!

The Yugoslav version of this uniform seems to be strongly influenced by the German design, just greatly simplified, more cheaply built, less tailored in fit, and a lot more comfortable.

An amazing amount of information.

Regarding the field shovel aka entrenching tool, at least until 1976 The Bundesgrenzschutz was using the Wehrmachtsfeldspaten, Initially, they were using WW2 surplus but later there was supplemental manufacturing. One such manufacturer was Carl Busse in Mainz, Rhineland Palatinate.Their stamp was C.B. Mainz Year eg. 1952 they had already been producing military equipment during Nazi times such as leather holsters for Brownings produced in occupied Belgium. The M38 folding spade became the most popular entrenching tool in the Bundesgrenzschutz. Initially, the blade was painted black and later the colour changed to police green. I am not sure when the BGS ceased to use an entrenching tool. By the way the NVA ( East Germans) used exactly the same e-tool until dissolution.

Sanglier wrote:Yes, Steve, I still have a set of the woolen uniform that I got from you at the end of that “point in (your) collecting time”.

Heh... and now I know exactly who you are Since I wasn't active when you joined up here, a belated "welcome" from me seems to be appropriate.

Steve

new member here, but collect and research BGS for awhile, so hope some helpful comments are ok! Most of the period photos are 80s with a few from 50s-70s. Note the wool field trousers worn all year with the 2nd model Sumpftarn jackets. Breadbag is 1979, not 1963 (middle of contract number is year) and already in new colour post 1976 green like the messkit. Older breadbags are darker green. Messkit strap is BGS or Bepo, not BW, so is ok. Y-straps dated 1971 and water bottle 1974. The D-rings were designed for water bottle and messkit, if breadbag not worn, but not intended to replace it - there are a few photos of this wear method, but was rarely done.

Helmet is older vented shell from 50s refurbished in 80s with new liner and post 1976 green paint (M53 was used until 90s). 64 is the shell size. Helmets were not normally dated.

BGS had own Klappspaten model, so not use BW. Different colour and black leather carrier. Most had also had different locking mechanism to lock blade at any angle instead of only 90 and 180 degrees. Straight shovels from 50s were still used into 60s, but phased out in 60s. Zeltbahnen in Sumpftarn and solid green can be seen beside each other for awhile. But Zeltbahn not worn often in later years. So your setup is good start for late 70s-early 90s, when replace the couple incorrect items!

Gasmask model depend on year. In 50s-early 60s mostly refurbished GM38 and GM30 from WH stocks in WW2 style schwarzgrün can (postwar production marked Auer on lid). Tall 1959 model can like BW adopted by BGS around 1960-61 (some cans were already produced 1959). Same as BW except marked "BGS" on lens case, sometimes top and bottom painted schwarzgrün. Normally found with the Schutzmaske 54A like used by BW (wrongly called GM54 by collectors), sometimes filter attachment painted schwarzgrün. Both can models used into mid 60s. Since mid 60s issued same masks as BW - first Schutzmaske 62 with zipper bag, later (ca. 70s?) replaced by Schutzmaske 65. Gasmasks not always worn, so often not see them in photos.

Kl1989 wrote:new member here, but collect and research BGS for awhile, so hope some helpful comments are ok!

I'm glad to see you here! Since I figured out who you are I can safely say to everybody here that you know your stuff

Steve

Thank you once again K1989 for the wealth of information! The gas mask designation and e-tool info are great to know, now I can keep my eyes open for the correct models.
I can't see either a BW or BGS marking on the gas mask canister from the photos I have, so next time I dig it out I'll check again to see, my guess is that it is a BW one.
And as soon as I can I'll post a dump thread for all the BGS photos I've accumulated.

In the various photos that have the sumpftarn jackets and the dark solid color pants, are the pants black, gray, or green?  

Would the pants be something close to this?  Does anyone know the exact color these pants are?
https://hessenantique.com/bundeswehr-moleskin-trousers-new/

Thanks

idiot88 wrote:In the various photos that have the sumpftarn jackets and the dark solid color pants, are the pants black, gray, or green?  

Would the pants be something close to this?  Does anyone know the exact color these pants are?
https://hessenantique.com/bundeswehr-moleskin-trousers-new/

Thanks

From 1963 to 1975 they wore dark blue-gray trousers in either cotton (warm weather) or wool (cold weather). The cotton type is nearly the same as the Sumpftarn trousers, the wool type is similar but not the same. Here are some (not great) pictures of them:




The cotton type is extremely hard to find, the wool type only a bit better. The cotton type requires knowing what you're looking for because Polizei forces had their own similar uniforms and it is possible to confuse them. The main thing that differentiates them is many have integrated belts and the others tend to be noticeably different colors.

Steve

the green wool trousers were worn all year. They were introduced with the 2nd model Sumpftarn jackets as part of the same uniform and remained in service same years as the jackets (so until about mid 80s), despite the transition to moosgrün MZA. Still see them in 80s like some photos posted in this thread.

The cotton trousers from the mid 60s green Einsatzanzug were actually not used with the 2nd model Sumpftarn jackets. This was incorrect idea from awhile ago. The only concession for hot weather seem to be occasional use in 60s-early 70s with Drillich trousers, but not very common.

Thanks for the clarification! I know the production of the Einsatz cotton trousers was not continued beyond... 1965? But I thought I figured they were worn for a while at least unofficially.

Steve