57' BW splinter jacket

Hi all
 Here's my newest acquisition ... finally after searching high and low for one !!!(at all) let alone at a half reasonable price!!!
It's a little thread-bear in places has some repairs and one patch repair, zipper works but has a few "teeth" missing!!"D" rings still present, and poppers all there and work fine.... Makers label unfortunately totally washed out!!

Good score on a classic piece .

Have been looking for awhile; not easy to find reasonably priced examples..


S

Yeah the prices,are exploding on ebay.Even destroyed pieces cost a lot.
So very nice catch Paul!

Hi guys thanks for the comments!!

Raking about in the loft!!!  i have just found this early?? what I was told.... BW pistol belt... no makers marks i can see!!! is this BW issue!!??? if so would this be correct era for the jacket!!??

Pics help!!!!!

As has probably already been noted, this is a common French belt.

Yes, thanks Andrew.... I saw another like it on another French thread!!!
I have managed since to pick up not one but two genuine early Bundeswehr belts!!
by two different makers...and two different colours!!! one olive green bund the other blue grey..Luft?? or THW perhaps!!???

Those are two rare birds - maybe the difference in colour is simply a natural variation in dye-lots?

Congrats on the belts!!  Those are definitely not easy to come by.  As far as I know there was no official different uses for the belt colors, rather it was just differences in production runs.  Maybe the color changes were deliberate, maybe they were just manufacturing variations.  I don't know.

If you're interested in rare BW belts I happen to have a spare experimental type that came right after this one.  It's basically the same belt that was used into the 1990s, but the buckle has a big hole in it instead of being a solid piece.  These were issued with the 1959 change to the wool uniform and was quickly dropped.  My guess is it picked up dirt really easily when laying down.

Here's a picture of one from eBay in 2013.  Seller got EUR 136 for it, which is a bit more than I think it's worth:



PM if you have an interest.  I saw one sell a few weeks ago for just about EUR 100, which is about where I usually see them go for.  I think I paid EUR 80 for my first one several years ago, but that was a friend purchase.  The going rate for the type you picked up is about EUR 60-80 from what I've seen.

Steve

I am looking for both types of belt (especially the earlier one), as well as some parts from the first pattern canteen (the one with the plastic shell), but would rather find them through trade if possible...

136 Euros for a belt?

Nice experimental belt Steve!!
Andrew
I managed to pick up a matching early canteen set from a seller on German ebay.....(same seller the early green belt came from!!)..... it was all its money.... but its in super condition and as I said all matching AWS 56!! even down the canvas strap!!
oh and whilst digging out the canteen I found my 56' dated size 8 1/2 splittertarn mitts!!!

Nice mitts!

I was digging through a surplus bin in the Netherlands a couple years ago - it was full of the standard three-piece BW canteen sets, but I found two of the complete second-pattern types (the M1931 style with rubber coating) and just the strap/cap assembly and plastic lower half of the first-type. After digging through dozens of standards ones from the 1960s/70s, I gave up trying to find the first-pattern canteen bottle and upper plastic half. It was very frustrating. I do have a complete set of the South African version though.

mylle wrote:136 Euros for a belt?

Yeah, I know. The early BW stuff has become very collectable. I bet someone would pay EUR 150 for the US type web belt if it can be proven German made. I have never seen one available for sale. The suspenders for the Splittertarn trousers (which are NOT camo, but unique to the trousers) come up for sale very rarely and I just checked and 2 years ago one sold for EUR 160. I kid you not.

There are four carriers for the E-Tool from this period, one of which would probably go for EUR 150. I've never seen one for sale though I know a few people that have them. There's a British type that I've only seen in a few pictures and in one collection. That would probably go for big money. Oddly enough the earlier type that goes on the US style belt had a bunch come onto the market and I don't think people knew what they were at first. I got one cheap

austromunga wrote:Nice experimental belt Steve!!

That one isn't mine, but thanks anyway Mine's a little bit better condition.

I managed to pick up a matching early canteen set from a seller on German ebay.....(same seller the early green belt came from!!)..... it was all its money.... but its in super condition and as I said all matching AWS 56!! even down the canvas strap!!

You did very well with the items. Note that you have a 2nd Model canteen there. The 1st model (1955 production) is even rarer and looks more like a WW2 type, but with a larger cup and the canteen itself being made out of Bakelite.

Steve

Yeah, I know. The early BW stuff has become very collectable. I bet someone would pay EUR 150 for the US type web belt if it can be proven German made. I have never seen one available for sale. The suspenders for the Splittertarn trousers (which are NOT camo, but unique to the trousers) come up for sale very rarely and I just checked and 2 years ago one sold for EUR 160. I kid you not.

There are four carriers for the E-Tool from this period, one of which would probably go for EUR 150. I've never seen one for sale though I know a few people that have them. There's a British type that I've only seen in a few pictures and in one collection. That would probably go for big money. Oddly enough the earlier type that goes on the US style belt had a bunch come onto the market and I don't think people knew what they were at first. I got one cheap Smile

Any pics of these please so I know what to look out for?

I am trying to sort out the various models of BW canteens.

I had considered this one below to be a 'second type', as the canteen bottle is dated 1960 and the cup is dated 1959, whereas the plastic types seem to be dated about 1956. Is there another type that precedes both of these?

Hey Andrew
Nice 60's WW II style canteen..i have one in the post at the mo..I will post details when it arrives..
you could also try early Austrian army canteens as they would seem to be a copy of the 56' German ones.. but these are probably just as rare!!
but in typical Austrian style a lot of fine details were changed!! the German made clip for instance was reversed, the webbing material is a finer weave than the German ..also the clip at the front is different..
the colour is different.... Austrian grey and the cup is marked Usch 59 (its missing the metal handles too!!) the strap is also HBA marked....the Austrian army acceptance stamp ...and unlike the German example (which is unmarked) the Austrian one is dated in the cap!! also Usch 59..
the top half green "funnel" section on the Austrian one is actually a German AWS 56 marked one!!

Gulf91 wrote:Any pics of these please so I know what to look out for?

I'll see about posting some pics at some point.  I did try to find a comprehensive, or even decent discussion, about this on WAF, but I came up with nothing  I did find a nice thread about canteens (below).

Wolverine wrote:I am trying to sort out the various models of BW canteens.

I had considered this one below to be a 'second type', as the canteen bottle is dated 1960 and the cup is dated 1959, whereas the plastic types seem to be dated about 1956. Is there another type that precedes both of these?

No, the plastic one was the second model issued.  The confusing thing is it seems the 1st model was produced from 1955-1957 while the 2nd model (plastic) was produced 1956-1958.  The 3rd model is the common 3 piece all metal type used to this day (or at least recently), except it has a rough texture.  I've seen a picture from about 1961 that shows all three in use at the same time.

The confusing thing is there were many different versions of the Ritter (aka Kokonuss) canteen.  Most I've seen have no rubber coating, some have the coating.  I've seen examples dated 1955.  You can learn more about it here:

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=816682&highlight=canteen

Steve

an interesting thread covering a multitude of topics with some great gear shown austro those splitter mitts are real nice as is also the belt steve has shown and as steve points out the second pattern solid buckle type was used untill the 1990's ,back to the jacket can i ask what the frontal D rings were actually used for
as for the first belt you show austro here is mine from an operation daguet display plus a us belt i  have been using in some of my displays,here are my other belts as for canteens i have two type's some of the rubber coated has peeled in places and you can see the coconut DAK style wood veneer underneath

CollectinSteve wrote:

Gulf91 wrote:Any pics of these please so I know what to look out for?

I'll see about posting some pics at some point.  I did try to find a comprehensive, or even decent discussion, about this on WAF, but I came up with nothing  I did find a nice thread about canteens (below).

Wolverine wrote:I am trying to sort out the various models of BW canteens.

I had considered this one below to be a 'second type', as the canteen bottle is dated 1960 and the cup is dated 1959, whereas the plastic types seem to be dated about 1956. Is there another type that precedes both of these?

No, the plastic one was the second model issued.  The confusing thing is it seems the 1st model was produced from 1955-1957 while the 2nd model (plastic) was produced 1956-1958.  The 3rd model is the common 3 piece all metal type used to this day (or at least recently), except it has a rough texture.  I've seen a picture from about 1961 that shows all three in use at the same time.

The confusing thing is there were many different versions of the Ritter (aka Kokonuss) canteen.  Most I've seen have no rubber coating, some have the coating.  I've seen examples dated 1955.  You can learn more about it here:

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=816682&highlight=canteen

Steve

Thanks - so the Ritter was in production before the plastic one...

CollectinSteve wrote:

mylle wrote:136 Euros for a belt?

Yeah, I know.  The early BW stuff has become very collectable.  I bet someone would pay EUR 150 for the US type web belt if it can be proven German made.  I have never seen one available for sale.  The suspenders for the Splittertarn trousers (which are NOT camo, but unique to the trousers) come up for sale very rarely and I just checked and 2 years ago one sold for EUR 160.  I kid you not.

There are four carriers for the E-Tool from this period, one of which would probably go for EUR 150.  I've never seen one for sale though I know a few people that have them. There's a British type that I've only seen in a few pictures and in one collection.  That would probably go for big money.  Oddly enough the earlier type that goes on the US style belt had a bunch come onto the market and I don't think people knew what they were at first.  I got one cheap

austromunga wrote:Nice experimental belt Steve!!

That one isn't mine, but thanks anyway  Mine's a little bit better condition.

I managed to pick up a matching early canteen set from a seller on German ebay.....(same seller the early green belt came from!!)..... it was all its money.... but its in super condition and as I said all matching AWS 56!! even down the canvas strap!!

You did very well with the items.  Note that you have a 2nd Model canteen there.  The 1st model (1955 production) is even rarer and looks more like a WW2 type, but with a larger cup and the canteen itself being made out of Bakelite.

Steve

Hi steve just to show the E tool carriers i have , id be interested to know what the british style carrier looked like if any referance pictures are available

Oooooo... your Ritter type is the rarest of the bunch. It's the type with the huge cup. Hold onto that one closely.

I don't think the Germans ever had a use for the D-Rings. At least I've never seen anything attached to them in the hundreds of photos I've looked at. The purpose of them was for clipping a backback onto them. This is something the Swiss did, but the Germans apparently never got around to it before the uniform was discontinued (1956-1957 is a small window!). The Swiss, Germans, Belgians, Spanish, and French all used uniforms based on this design first conceived in 1953/54 by the French. It was intended to be used as a standard Europe wide uniform for the European Defense Community (EVG - Europäschen Vereidigungs Gemeinschaft).

As for the British type, I'm not really sure if there is a carrier. I've got one tiny picture from a collector and it's unclear if he rigged up some standard BW straps to hold it together. I suspect that's what he did. In any case, any use of the British type was likely a stopgap measure during expansion rather than something they fully intended on using. Likewise, I have pics of one BGS type leather carrier with a BW eagle stamp on it. This was likely in the very, very early days of the BW when the first members were moved over from the BGS and equipment was in short supply so they repurposed BGS equipment (canteens are documented).

I don't believe I've seen the longer spade carrier before! My guess is they had a bunch of surplus shovels lying about and made some covers to fit.

Steve

Steve ,thanks for the info regarding the D rings ,I'll look forward to researching the  European Defense Community uniforms in greater detail ,I'm familiar with the Swiss uniform backpack frontal mounting so now it all makes perfect sense ,do you think the double shoulder strap arrangement was to accommodate the proposed equipment too ,I'll hang onto the ritter canteen ,a shame the coating is so brittle,thinking about this British style carrier i recall seeing a picture showing the E tool mounted upside down on the wearers front ,the carrier was not too dissimilar to the canvas pair i show except the shovel was more exposed the handle was retained with a small strap as part of the webbing strap and was worn over the shoulder  i believe this was purposely worn this way ,does this description match in someway what you recall seeing
all the best
james

Impressive as always James,where on earth are you sourcing all this great kit from?

Have a horrible feeling that last year some time I got amongst some other bits one of those plastic canteens and binned it as had no idea what it was or wasnt complete.

Hi all
Just a quick update on my latest addition to my Bundeswehr  canteen sets..
This one is the Ritter Pat "Kokonuss" dated HRE 59 on the lid,cup and even printed on the strap
I have also started a new thread for comparison of the four types I have... here!!!

https://iacmc.forumotion.com/t11028-bundeswehr-canteens